I agree with what you say about Leeds in general and the play off system - but I don't think you give the Wakefield defence enough credit. If Leeds only played at 50%, it was because they got battered up the middle and spent long periods without the ball in hand. To call it a training game doesn't seem fair to either side - would you normally expect to see two players sparked out in a training game?

I agree that it wasn't a training match.

This idea that Leeds only try in the 'the games that matter' mystifies me.

They're not good enough to exert such control over their own fortunes. Wigan were too complacent in that Cup game. They should have won it comfortably.

I really hope either ourselves or Wire win the Grand Final this year and put to bed this myth that a 5th-placed finish is a legitimate target, better than finishing 4th, or maybe even better than going all-out and finishing top.

Twelve months before Leeds' freak run last year, we were heralding Madge's success in changing the attitude of the Wigan club from Noble's "start slow, peak in the play-offs" style. It didn't work, we repeatedly came up short. Finishing top gave us a real benefit, even if we didn't take full advantage of it when we lost the home tie with Leeds.

Finishing 5th means it's straight knock-out rugby all the way. Yes, you get a theoretically 'easy' first weekend tie at home to the team in 8th, who probably have a losing record across the season, but what if they're a side that's been on a red hot streak to finish the regular rounds? Play-offs are a lot to do with form and momentum - say Wakefield won every game between now and September to finish 8th (they won't, but let's pretend); would you say with confidence that Leeds had a walk-over of a game, especially when their last meeting involved being well beaten by them last night?

Everyone is capable of throwing in a poor performance every so often. We did in the Cup semi earlier this month; the team finishing 5th has no room for error like that. There's always potential for a freak result. Finishing in the top four allows you to get a performance like that out of the way in the first week. If anything, it's 4th that's the position that gives a greater advantage than it perhaps should do; turn in a winning performance in the first week, get a week off, then you've got a home tie to reach Old Trafford, and no direct involvement in the Club Call nonsense. Lose in week one and you've still got a second chance.

Leeds may finish 5th and still win at Old Trafford this year, but it won't be because they've worked on a carefully calculated plan. They lose games like last night because they're not the force they once were. Sure, they seem to step it up a gear in the knock-out games - they have the big-game-winning experience to do that - but if Hull wind up in 5th place, would anyone really see them as the most real threat?

5th is not the new 1st.

I’ve heard it said that some teams (Leeds in particular) purposely don’t really wont to win some games as finishing 5th or so gives them some sort of a big advantage in the play-offs, I may be naïve but I think this is sh*te, I think this is just put about by some fans to try to cover up for a bad team performance (and not denied by some coaches for the same reason) although coaches would never say they would play that way anyway. No, more like Leeds on Monday played like they have for most of the season, indifferently. They, with the help of Popeye the Thaler-man caught us on day in the CC semi when we were way over confident, and if it was true that Wigan ever played a game with no intention of winning, I for one, would rip up my season ticket.

Those who believe that Leeds are doing it right and will win it form 5th should put their money where their mouths are as you can currently get 10/1 with Stan James against them winning the GF.

You can place the bet each way and still be in profit if they are losing finalists.

So would I, and both of us would be in the right.

The Wigan fans come down on their team hard whenever they lose, so imagine how life would be if they lost every couple of weeks and someone at the club tried to sell it as a crafty plan.

Firstly, we'd say it was a monumental risk - you still have to beat someone of worth to win the Grand Final (assuming you actually make the play-offs).

Secondly, we'd say it was hugely disrespectful to the fans who've paid to be entertained every week, not just in the last month of the season.

Thirdly, we'd say that the best way to win things is to get on a roll - stop/start is no way to conduct a campaign. We know, because we had that with Nobby.

Fourthly, we'd say we didn't believe it. At Wigan we've seen how great coaches and great teams operate - they go out to win EVERY week, thus creating golden ages and making themselves legends in the process.

And we'd be right on all counts. And if anyone disagrees, I ask you again to just imagine how you'd feel if Wigan had lost almost as many games as they'd won this season. We wouldn't buy any of this crap about playing clever strategies. We'd want Wane out and would be hard on Lenagan's back to bring in new, better players.

They are generous odds. I have a feeling they are putting all their eggs in into the Challenge Cup.

There is no way Leeds are playing for 5th. They want to be top 4 to either get the week off or 2nd chance.

Leeds used their get out of jail free card v Wigan in the semi. Sadly I think they will get well beaten in the final and fade out of the play-offs.

Really?
Did they also use it to beat the NRL champions?
Did they also use it last year to win the GF?

Quite an arrogant attitude imo. If I was a Leeds fan I would be asking you to carry on thinking that way.

So would anyone. I don't understand the point





Indeed it is. Pop over to the Leeds forum if you need proof.



And Nobby won nothing with that system at all did he? Oh wait...........

Nothing wrong with getting on a roll if you can keep it up until October. Sadly Wigan haven't been able to do that- once under Madge, but imo that had more to do with "first season shock" of the Aussie tactics than "rolling", instead we looked "flogged to death" in the CC Semi.




And in a "first past the post" system, that would make sense. It may not make sense under the present, relatively new system.



Not really, I would be more angry with the RFL for producing the conditions where this was a viable, arugably THE ONLY strategy for winning the GF.

I agree, Leeds are not playing for a lower position. However, they are not willing to aim for a higher position if it means impacting their chances of winning the GF.

What you have also got to look at is each individual teams squads, which undoubtably has an impact on strategy.

Leeds do not have "strength in depth". What they do have (the opposite of Wigan) are experienced big game players who can turn up when it matters.

They must play to this strength.

Just my opinion and the next ten weeks will see if I'm correct.

Give over. You're on Lenagan's back for the slightest thing.

In fact, the thought of you of all people calmly accepting a situation where Wigan were losing almost as many games as they were winning and not lambasting the club for it is off the scale in terms of ridiculous.

But I do agree that the current system is poor.

You may be right in the event. However, I think that dismissing the Leeds victory in the CC Semi as a "one-off" has already been proven to be incorrect.

if you think that Leeds were not trying to win last night, you were watching a different game to me and you need your head examined.

They just played badly, too many players went AWOL, that said, they almost pulled it off.

Oh I agree that it wouldn't go down well. That's not the point I am making.

What I cannot get my head around is the current fashion for "brutal pre-seasons" or a focus on hitting the ground running in the early games.

If we do that, then continue all season- great.

But last year we looked shot at the end, this year we are already looking tired.

Given the current structure of SL I cannot accept that the best strategy is "go out on day 1, and maintain that intensity up into the final day".

It doesn't happen in any other sport, I can't see how it should/would in RL.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. However the uncomfortable facts are that Leeds gave us a good run for our money in last years CC final, are in the CC final this year having knocked us out and are the current SL champions. If questions are to be asked, perhaps we should start down at the DW? This team has a bit to learn about pressure games. We don't seem to win very often at home with more than 18,000 fans in the ground. Bratfut being the latest example.

Watching Leeds this year reminds me of us under Noble and the way we played, although they seem capable of winning the big games rather than us at the time.

I work with a few Leeds fans and despite the success they have had most do not enjoy the performances for the most part of the season, and they find it immensely frustrating to say the least.

I watch rugby because I enjoy it and it is and trophies are the cherry on top and are great when they come our way but the main part of it for me is the week in week out performance on the field.

Teams can peak 3 maybe 4 times in a year and I would say that we should and will be aiming to peak physically at the start of the year, for the back end of the cup campaign and the play-offs.

The idea that we can only peak once is incorrect.

We lost the Leeds semi because they wanted it more and some of our players came up with plays that you would never see them make again, but credit to Leeds they took advantage and turned us over. I do not think if we had played like we had for 85% of the season Leeds would have turned us over, but they did and that is the excitement of the cup, anything can happen on the day.

I agree with Rogues in relation to their ability to challenge, I think they lack the quality and the coaching but they do have a nack of drawing teams in and if teams are stupid enough to get sucked in by them, they will cause them problems.

Wire are a team that do seem to get sucked in and intimidated and for that reason I would not be shocked though to see a Leeds win even if they are the underdogs.

Then you should be delighted with the way Wigan are playing this season.

I have to say I fundamentally disagree with you. Personally I believe that the whole point of entering a competition is to win it.

"They don't draw pictures on scorecards".

Agree, and I think mental fatigue is also an issue. It is very difficult to maintain top performances from the start right through to the end of the season. Even the great Wigan sides of the late 80s and early 90s bombed in games from time to time. It is a big ask psychologically to be excellent 100% of the time and if things start to go wrong in a game, then the team can suddenly feel under pressure and may not respond well to that pressure, as we saw in the Leeds game.

Last night was no more a training game than the CC Semi where we deservedly (and thanks to our players winning it, not yours losing it and not the referee) knocked your lot out. We lost to Wakefield not because the players or coaching staff don't care, but because Wakefield played a blinder and we didn't play well enough. We lost because we were missing a halfback, a centre and our best second rower and the guys that came in (Stevie Ward excepted) didn't do their jobs well enough, neither did some of the more regular starters. We also got a bit unlucky with some of the calls - apparently Wakefield never knock on, never strip a ball and never pass forward - but that wasn't why we lost. We just weren't good enough on the day.

But are Leeds good enough on most days? Yes. The fact that only two matches of note in the last three seasons haven't involved the Rhino's kind of suggests that you should be looking a bit closer to home as to why you're failing - it's certainly not because Leeds don't try against Wakefield.

This Leeds squad has won SL from 1st, 2nd and 5th, won it playing the best rugby in the competition, and when playing a close second to an electric Saints side. They've won it with a record breaking attack and won it with the meanest defence, and they've won it having been the most consistent side over a season as well as being relatively inconsistent - but you lot talk about this side like they're a bunch of grunters who are fortunate to even earn a living. It all sounds a bit like sour grapes to be honest.

So Leeds, with one Challenge cup win in 30+ years, are the model we should be aspiring to? No thanks.

9 losses in 22 games would suggest otherwise.

have a day off