A very small part.

I don't wish to sound harsh, but I think the underlined bit is the key phrase.

I've no doubt that Nobby is a top bloke, but I feel he's very limited as a coach. This is his team that Maguire has just won the Grand Final with, but in reality it was never anywhere near winning a title while Nobby himself was in control.

He definitely stabilised us after the Millward disaster - and that took some doing, but I don't think he got us anywhere close to winning a Grand Final. We reached several semi-finals under his tutelage, but apart from right near the end, we nearly always looked to be out of our depth.

I think - if you consider the astonishing transformation we've seen at Wigan since 2006, Nobby only really gets plaudits for about 25% of it. The vast bulk of the glory must go to Madge.

That said, it was good to see him there, chatting with the Wigan lads like they were old friends. In that respect, all's well that ends well.

Almost as bad.

Another good thing about last night - somebody called Potter didn't have a magical night.

I'd agree with pretty much all of that, perhaps I was too praising of Noble in my original reply.

The victory, success and results for 2010 are Maguires, and you're right, with that exact team under Noble this year we wouldn't have done anywhere near as well as we have done.

He saved us from going down, steadied the ship and took us up a level from where we were in 05 and 06 (for a variety of reasons).

One thing I think we can all agree on is that nothing should detract from the job Madge has done in his first season as a Head Coach, and long may it continue.

id echo this whole statement!

"Tutelage" ..... word of the day

Yeah, great post Crunch, sums up my feelings very well.

I think people make out that he did a lot worse than he actually did.
Doesn't really matter anyway they're maguires team and it was down to him this year really.
I was ust made up watching highlights on the bbc and they interview brian and he's behind wigan the whole way, backed to win before the match and i'm sure he said 'we came top of the table' and seemed made up at the end.

Like others I don't wish to be harsh but a thread about Brian Noble has no place on a board full of "Wigan winning the GF" threads.
I, like everyone else, appreciate the turnaround Nobby initiated in 2006 and the fact that we got close (in terms of minutes but nowhere near in terms of ability) to reaching the GF.
BUT 2010 belongs 100% to Maguire, Wane and staff. Furthermore and being totally brutal what Wigan have achieved this year has quite frankly embarrased Noble as a coach and I can't see any NRL club touching him.
I don't think I've spoken to a single oppo fan this season who hasn't said:
"What is Maguire doing? I can't believe it's the same team as last year."

Absolutely spot on. History has proved Nobles contribution ended in 2006. He saved us form relegation and for that I am eternally grateful. I remember at the time people saying it might do us good to go down and I was doing my nut because of the implications of that happening so thank God he came. Alas after that it was poop and the fact Madge took the same team bar Deacon and transformed them from a side never going to get to Old Trafford to a GF winning team speaks volumes.

Lets not forget Radlinski and Wane were pretty livid at the attitude that existed in the club and this existed while Noble was in charge. It's changed completely since he left and we are IMO back to the clinical and professional attitude we first saw under Lowe and Monie but with modern fitness ideas added to the mix.

Dave

I agree with this.

He bought the paint, but Madge took it back, changed the shade and painted the bridge.

So did Brian put humpty dumpty back together again and Madge put him back on the wall?

Have I got that right?

There is absolutely no denying the he helped build the foundations of this Champion side.

Thanks, Brian.

BN's contribution to the win was small. He played a part in us avoiding relegation (but no greater a part than Dobson and Fielden IMO) but he failed to take the club forward.

I do think though that to say this is Madge's victory is overstating the role he has had. Don't get me wrong, I think he is the best coach in SL. I think Madge himself, being a great leader, would acknowledge the part that the whole coaching and backroom staff have played in this win, and indeed the players themselves.

I called for years on this board for a clear out of the backroom and support set-up at Wigan and a change in the culture of the whole club, for us to return to what made the club so successful in the 80s and 90s, an attitude that nothing less than excellence in every area is good enough for Wigan, that the club should embrace new ideas from Australia and even from other sports in a relentless quest to be the best and that the will to win of men like Edwards, Bell and Hanley should once again be the ethos of our club.

When I did this the Noble defenders accused me not only of being wrong about standards having slipped but also about the chances of us ever becoming leaders again - everyone has caught up now, they said. They were wrong on both counts. We had fallen behind but we could become leaders again, and we have!

Wigan once again set the standards to which all other British clubs must aspire.

The challenge now for Madge and the club as a whole is to keep raising the bar. I believe he and Wane understand this, which is why next season is so exciting, so full of potential, not just because our squad will be significantly strengthened not only by our excellent new recruits but also by the return of Hock and the further development of our brilliant youngsters but because I believe that they recognise there are areas for improvement, even though we have demonstrated throughout the season that we have the best side in SL.

If I were to give credit to any one individual for us being in this position, it would be IL.

I said on this board a number of times in recent years that IL should publicly declare his intention to return Wigan to the top and to raise standards at the club again so that we became the leading club in British RL. I was wrong, not about the goal, which IL clearly shared, but in expecting him to say so publicly; it isn't his style. He likes to work quietly and has gone about his business in a steady and sure way.

All Wigan fans should be grateful to our Chairman. He has not only rebuilt the club, he has ushered in a new great era at the greatest club in British RL. In a few months time we will get to show the Australians what British RL has learnt this year - Wigan are back. The challenge from a Saints side much mightier than their Merseyside namesakes will be immense, but I believe we will give a good account of ourselves. For decades the Australians have only really respected one British club side (in the great days of the tours we used to face a virtually full strength Kangaroos side at CP) and whether we win or lose I expect that tradition to continue. Bring it on!

Completely disagree. He has had no influence on the clubs current success IMO. Unless you think Wane and Radlinski were making it up when they said the club had lost its way I can't see how anyone can give Noble any credit. That problem which was at the core of what was wrong at this club happened on Noble's watch. He failed to fix it. He failed to put in place the structures and methods employed by Made & Co and he failed to address the root problems that were preventing the team and club improving so just what did he build exactly? In three and a half years we saw no improvement under Noble which is not building anything.

He left and we look a different team and the players rave about how much better they are coached. Wane had clearly been watching the club lurch along through gritted teeth. It's not rocket science to work out Madge & Co instigated what amounts to a revolution compared to the way Noble ran things.

Dave

Dave,

Just a point on Noble...

He was going to play Sam at fullback long before Madge tried it, just a point to ponder re him seemingly being clueless in your opinion.

How can you deny Noble hasn't help lay the foundations?

It was under Noble as head coach that assembled the current championship winning squad. To say that he hasn't played any part in where we are now considering he saved us from relegation is absolutely ridiculous.

Read Deano G's post. When Noble left most of the back room staff went with him. What he "built" was deemed not good enough. Virtually the entire back room staff and the way the club approaches the game changed.

This is what I am getting at. What Noble put in place was swept away.

And as to the squad Noble didn't in fact sign the entire squad. Many were already on the books such as Richards, Lockers and others and the likes of JT and McIllorum where here already in the junior teams. The like of Dean Bell and Wane had more influence than Noble on this win IMO due to their work with the younger players in this side who started out under them.

Watching Noble coach this team and comparing basically the same players coached under Madge is like comparing chalk and cheese and surely the fact the players heap praise on Madge as they are doing tells you all you need to know about who they attribute this success to.

Dave

Which he did.

You've criticised him so much that you're not willing to give him ANY credit. Are you willing to now accept Riddell was a good move instead of Higham?

I doubt it!

Noble improved Wigan from our previous coach but he is a dinosaur as far as tactics are concerned. Don't forget we were (and are) a team spending the full cap so we expect a top 6 finish under any coach.
I will never forget the first game of last season under Noble. We lost 12-6 and we were hopeless. If our off-loads came off we won but we depended on a flash of individual brilliance.
I think Noble has acquired some excellent players at Crusaders and if they had been coached by Maguire they would have made the top four.
They should have won the play-off game at Huddersfield but they were clueless in the opposition's 20, having no apparent moves while they were camped there for long periods of the game.
Deacon said that Maguire is the best coach he has played under.

Exactly right; most importantly that ridiculous "duty of care" attitude that held so many of our youngsters back.

spot on

One of the strange paradoxes of this situation is that, while most people are in agreement that IL deserves massive praise, one of the things he deserves praise for most IMO is having the guts to replace Noble.

At the end of last year, IL was under a lot of pressure from some quarters to retain him. I'm not quite sure why - though the Sky presenters' desire to see Nobby stay at Wigan is easily understandable - but that last day of 2009, when Wigan lost gallantly at St Helens, must have been very difficult for IL. We'd been brutalised into accepting less, and suddenly, because we'd played well in a semi (but still lost), Nobby seemed to many of us like a good coach. In fact, IL got slagged off by quite a few people afterwards for not retaining him - right up until the announcement that Maguire was coming.

So where does this leave our affection for Nobby, in comparison, say, to our affection for IL (who clearly got it 100% right)?

I'll still give Nobby some credit, mainly for the Great Escape - but lets be fair, that's four years ago. Do any of us really believe that, if IL had given in and kept him for this year, we'd have had the season we've just had? I reckon we'd have finished about fouth or fifth and probably would not have got close to reaching the final.

Surely that puts things into perspective?

Nobby did a good enough job with us but then again after Basil Fawlty things just couldn't have got any worse could they! He has done a great job at Crusaders and turned them into a pretty decent competitive team but think if he is hoping to get a job overseas then Catalans is as far as he should be looking and not the NRL. I am not ungrateful for what Nobby did but it was time to move on, if he had stayed we would still be hearing speeches about rattling pots and pans, the same 17 would have been named week in week out, Darryl Goulding would still probably be at Salford and the young players who have done so well and given their all this year would still be playing in the under 20's or farmed out to other teams somewhere.
Thanks Nobby but an even bigger thank you to Ian Lenegan for finding the diamond that we have in our midst at the moment and for pairing him with the likes of Shaun Wane and Kris Radlinski - what a master stroke.

IMO Noble deserves credit for putting this bunch of players together. For if Maguire hadn't had this level of quality to start with the finish line could have been much sooner.

They may be the SAME names that noble left. BUT they are not the same players he left, they have a completely different attitude, different fitness levels, and different results, in that respect they are 100% Maguire's men.

Thank you for getting us to this starting point Brian.