We'll see, and I did say BETWEEN £2.5 and £5 million.

Do you think we were budgeting on full houses at Widnes?

I'd love to know how you've reached the conclusion that one year at Widnes could cost the club £2.5m over what they have budgeted?

At an average of £25 a ticket (an overestimate I'm sure you'll agree), that would be 100,000 fewer fans. Over 13 home games that's about 7,700 fewer fans per game than we are budgeting for.

I'd be astounded if we budgeted for anything more than 8,000 average attendances, so we'd need to average about 300 fans per game for your made up scenario to be true. I know our crowds are down, but I didn't realise it was that bad.

Care to let us in on your calculations as to how you reached that £5m figure, or is it just jealous nonsense?

Why would I be jealous?
You're already admitting to starting in the new Stadium with £2.5 million of debt and hoping that you can clear it in 10 years.

I'll stand by what I said, in that the debt COULD be as high as £5 million.
Is it true that Saints haven't had a shareholders meeting since 2009?

When you bought your first house, did you have a mortgage?

£2.5m of borrowings and a brand new £25m stadium looks pretty good to me? The fact it's planned to be repaid within 10 years would support the fact that it's a wholly reasonable amount of debt for the club to carry, wouldn't you agree?

Are you seriously saying you wouldn't accept £2.5m on Wigan's balance sheet in return for a brand new RL stadium owned by Wigan RL in the middle of the town?





It COULD be as high as £500 billion too. I'm just wondering how you calculated your £5m figure based upon a quoted £2.5m figure - what was the basis that you are so keen to stand by? given you stand by it, I assume it has at least SOME basis?



What point are you trying to make? As s shareholder I receive the club's accounts by the way.

The non shareholders meeting was mentioned to me by a Saints fan (not her

) and I just wondered if it was true as it seemed strange.

The link doesn't work.

Here's the salient point from your quote above:

Taylor Woodrow’s payment for Knowsley Road would only be received on vacant possession. [uResultantly[/u, an 18 month bridge loan of £8 million would have to be taken out pending completion.

Knowsley Road was vacated officially I think in February of this year. There is nothing but a couple of corners left of it with housebuilding already well underway. How do you know whether this loan was ever even taken out or whether the paragraph above which was apparently taken from the council website, the link to which does not work, was simply a proposal due to the financial mess Taylor Wimpey (not Woodrow) found themselves in last year, which resulted in our stadium plans being pushed back for a season? How do you know, if the loan was in fact taken out, that it wasn't subsequently paid back following the Knowsley Road site being vacated and the resultant money becoming payable by Taylor Wimpey?

I would suggest you know nothing at all, and nor do people on RedVee.

Incidentally, bridging loans have to be paid off in full. It wasn't a bridging loan if the terms were that it could be paid back over ten years.

Coming on great its very exciting. If anyone is interested plenty of photos here : www.redvee.net/forums/showthread ... um-Watch-4

Coming on great its very exciting. If anyone is interested plenty of photos here : www.redvee.net/forums/showthread ... um-Watch-4

I think we can add you to that list as well (although we didn't need any further evidence). It clearly states the interest on the bridging loan was going to be capitalised against the stadium, not that it was being paid to the lender over 10 years.

I didn't claim to know anything about the finances of it. I didn't even imply that I did. I was simply referring to the construction of the paragraph, which suggests something other than that which was being suggested by Rogues.

But since you have presented yourself as someone who understands finance (beyond dealing with personal current accounts, which even I understand), what does the reference


refer to if not to the lender?

If that 2.5mil is going to be paid off in 10 years then Saints accounts must be a hell of a lot healthier than ours.

Especially when you consider that haven't posted a profit for over 20 years.

Quote ="Div"Coming on great its very exciting. If anyone is interested plenty of photos here : www.redvee.net/forums/showthread ... um-Watch-4'" [url=http://viewtopic.php?f=18&t=385845&start=1455Plenty of photos on this very long RLFans thread too.[/url

Quote ="Div"Coming on great its very exciting. If anyone is interested plenty of photos here : www.redvee.net/forums/showthread ... um-Watch-4'" [url=http://viewtopic.php?f=18&t=385845&start=1455Plenty of photos on this very long RLFans thread too.[/url

You said this:

"It wasn't a bridging loan if the terms were that it could be paid back over ten years." which clearly show you questioning the type of loan stated given the "ten years" bit.

The redeemable bit clearly refers to the total debts of the club, overdraft/loans etc which they expect to be paid off over ten years. I suggest you go back and read it properly rather than question others when you clearly don't know yourself.

She can't see when a player is stood with two feet on the touchline, how do you expect her to understand the total debt the club is in before the move, and when the other part come to light then it could be a lot more.

But yes it does look a nice stadium.

Without a doubt the best purpose built RL stadium in the country but it is still just similar to the HJ but with corners and a little bigger. Still not premier league standard. Can't wait for the first derby in the new ground...

How many does the away terrace hold?

Why has this thread turned into a slanging match about how much debt Saints will be in, who cares?

We haven't been in a stadium with decent, revenue generating facilities for over 20 years either (quite the opposite, we've been in a cash draining ramshackle pit), so not sure what your point is.

When did Wigan last post a profit before moving to the JJB? Or Hull before moving to the KC? Or Wire before moving to the HJ?

History suggests that better facilities for fans = more fans and better facilities for corporates = more corporates. Both = more cash.

The poster who mentioned Saints dwindling crowds is also wide of the mark - in 2000 and 2001 we had sub 9k attendances. In 2009 and 2010 we had over 11k averages, 2010 was up over 27% on 2000. Of course the attendances have dwindled at Widnes, but it didn't take a genius to predict that.

A 12k plus average at the new stadium is VERY achievable and is plenty for Saints to turn a profit, given the other revenue generating facilities on site IMO (not least the fact we will start to see a return on match day catering etc which we didn't at KR).

Some good points being made here amongst the Saints/ W/L Andy (why I am not surprised?

) bickering...

£2.5m is cheap in terms of the cost to acquire a great stadium (albeit on the small side).

The £2.5m does look challenging though to clear in 10 years. Even assuming the £1m directors' loans don't carry interest Saints would be paying interest of 90k a year on the £1.5m balance (assuming interest at 6%) even on an interest only basis. To then repay capital on top as well looks challenging to me, given that Wigan, with the same SC to work with but much bigger crowds is only going to make £75,000-£200k profit this season. Having said that, Saints may be able to generate more revenue from owning their own ground (but equally over the longer term will face more costs than Wigan because of the maintenance and upkeep of the stadium).

The fact that what is a relatively small sum in the commercial world could cause Saints real problems is a damning indictment of the weak financial state of the game.

It looks like I might need a restraining order soon the amount of times you have to mention me in unrelated posts. Three times in two days is starting to get into stalker territory. If I'd known how much of a nerve I'd touched that you obviously can't get over it, I'd have done it much sooner.

The reason I mentioned you was that I was amused (and frankly relieved

) to find that I am far from being the sole object of your attacks... in terms of touching a nerve, it's hard to take your personal attacks personally when I am just one of many victims!

As everyone else can see it was actually Rogues who was bickering with some Stains fans, one of who tried to claim he and other didn't know what they were talking about when they themselves clearly didn't. I just put them right with the facts.

Of course it comes as no surprise that you couldn't see that, and had to focus on me - like you've done three times in the last two days when discussing something else.

Stalker.

I also see you've now decided to go into victim mode as well claiming "personal attacks".

The only victim at the moment is me with you stalking me at every opportunity.

Finances apart, it does look like a very nice stadium. Are both ends terracing?

Would you not be hoping for more than a 1k increase going into a new stadium? Look what Hull and Warrington have achieved since moving stadiums?

I would hope that Saints doing well in a new stadium could mean 14k+ average. Sell-outs against us and wire with big crowds against Leeds and Widnes. 12k seems a bit poor to me, although it is probably more realistic seeing as you have spent a year at Widnes (maybe more).... it would have been much easier moving had it been straight from KR.

Sell outs against us and you v saints is a given.

Both the HJ and Saints sell out and we are usually not far of at the DW lately.

There's a real passion for the games with each other. Hopefully Widnes fans will start coming out the woodwork now they're in SL and their boss being able to spend at cap limit should see them challenging in a few years.

Aye this side of the pennines is certainly dominating the sport at the moment, the games between the 3 teams are huge at the moment. Hopefully it will stay that way and Widnes will tap into that. I hope they spend to the full cap, that should mean some huge games between the 4 teams.