|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 15457 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Dec 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Arthur Warrior"I have floated this idea before and I would still like to see it tried out.
Sam Tomkins to loose forward.
He can tackle, he can read the game, he has excellent ball handling skills.
It would solve many problems if it worked.'"
It's not enough just to be able to tackle. How is he realistically going to stop their forwards finding their fronts and getting a quick ptb? He would spend the entire game clinging onto the ankles of the opposition forwards in defence, and catching his breath in attack.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 1979 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2012 | 12 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2018 | Jan 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Even moving Sam back to the halves will double his tackle stint. He will find himself targeted by second rowers like Murdoch-Masilla who will run straight at him. I think Waney is worried that Sam could be a weak link in the defence and have no energy left to attack if he is back at 6. Going to 13 is a non starter.
As I said Joel Tomkins is the best equipped, if only he was fit. A more creaitve solution might be Gelling. I just couldn't trust him though.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 791 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2011 | 14 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2022 | Jun 2022 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="moto748"The vast majority of teams, though, both here and in the NRL, manage perfectly well without this mythical ball-playing 13 (who are like hen's teeth these days). Why can't Wigan?'"
It doesn't have to be a 13 necessarily. In it's most basic form it's more to do with one of the forwards (middles ) running to the line, and passing out the back at the last second. The fact that O'Loughlin has a better passing game than almost anyone else on our team is a bonus. But if we just had someone else who could do the first thing to a decent standard, that would fix a big problem of our attacking move breaking down when the captain isn't on the pitch.
O'Loughlin does it well, James Graham, Grant Millington and to an extent, Cuthbertson. But it seems that none of our other forwards are capable of this.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 374 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2014 | 10 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2024 | Jun 2023 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Leaving out the obvious issue of the props failing to lay a platform I think our biggest issue is that we're already losing at the play the ball. Our distribution is poor and predictable. This WC has shown what happens when it's this way (Hodgson) and it stifles attack. All of a sudden Roby comes on, speeds things up, gives the PTB a bit of variety and the attack gets some vigour. Our halfs look so much better because they have that bit extra time and space to move.
I think outside of sorting the props, our biggest way to improve should be at 9. Mickey Mac did okay against Ireland (against inferior opposition though) but whoever we go with, I want a dynamic hooker who can switch things up and make the defenses guess. When this happens I suspect you'll see the halves playing much better.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 2988 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="secondstanza"Leaving out the obvious issue of the props failing to lay a platform I think our biggest issue is that we're already losing at the play the ball. Our distribution is poor and predictable. This WC has shown what happens when it's this way (Hodgson) and it stifles attack. All of a sudden Roby comes on, speeds things up, gives the PTB a bit of variety and the attack gets some vigour. Our halfs look so much better because they have that bit extra time and space to move.
I think outside of sorting the props, our biggest way to improve should be at 9. Mickey Mac did okay against Ireland (against inferior opposition though) but whoever we go with, I want a dynamic hooker who can switch things up and make the defenses guess. When this happens I suspect you'll see the halves playing much better.'"
I believe that in training the mantra from Winder at the play the ball believe or not is speed and keep it simple and the quality of the pass is less important.
I think you are spot on in saying that distribution is poor and predictable.
MM looked a different player with Ireland so hopefully he can bring some of form back with for next season but speed isn't his greatest asset even when he plays well.
Roby is in a different league to all of our players bar SOL and maybe ST on a good day.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 7586 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2011 | 14 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Dec 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Roby is easy to play against in SL though when we do it properly. If you make him work his off in defence making 50+ tackles he’s not as effective at dummy half. We’ve done that pretty well a few times.
Which ironically is one of the main reasons I think we struggled last year. Our forwards were doing ridiculous amounts of tackling and having nothing left when they have the ball.
I think it’s due to a change in our game plan since the 7 tackle rule was brought in. When we get within the 20m we’re an all or nothing team, seemingly scared to put the ball in the in-goal so barely get any repeat sets. We do the kick behind defence but in ridiculous situations like 30m from the line on the second tackle of the set.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Board Member | 20445 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2003 | 22 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| The hooking role is a good point. Neither MM or Powell offer that threat. Neither does TL.
There is a place for one in the squad as a hooker but not both for me.
Given the current squad I would perhaps not be shocked to see 1 of MM and Powell starting with Escaré coming off the bench as “impact” changing things up.
I also think MM could do a job at loose off the bench similar to Milner at Cas off the bench when Locky needs a rest.
I’d have loved to see Dwyer at Wigan as our bench option, but the reality is we have to lose 1 maybe 2 players who can play hooker from the squad before we look to bring in a new more dynamic 9.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 9565 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2019 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| McIlorum got plenty of praise from Aussie commentators playing for Ireland, in particular for his smarts at acting half.
O'Loughlin OTOH has come in for some criticism for not really doing very much. That may well be because Bennett isn't used to having a ball-playing 13 as such, and has now effectively got three halfbacks on the field anyway with Widdopp at fullback.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 29800 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Nov 2004 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| McIlorum looked to play a less structured game for Ireland then he does for us and he did it very well.
Food for thought maybe.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 15457 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Dec 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"McIlorum got plenty of praise from Aussie commentators playing for Ireland, in particular for his smarts at acting half.
O'Loughlin OTOH has come in for some criticism for not really doing very much. That may well be because Bennett isn't used to having a ball-playing 13 as such, and has now effectively got three halfbacks on the field anyway with Widdopp at fullback.'"
Lockers stands out against the big teams IMO. I thought he was good against Australia (didn't they only score when he was off the pitch?) and expect him to play well against Tonga tomorrow.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 9565 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2019 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| As an aside, it really looks like Williams has gone backwards this year. In the brief periods he played for england he looked like he had no idea what role he had or what he was trying to do. He looks like he needs to sit down and reboot his game, because there's no doubt he has raw ability, and it would be a crying shame if he never kicks on.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 29800 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Nov 2004 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"As an aside, it really looks like Williams has gone backwards this year. In the brief periods he played for england he looked like he had no idea what role he had or what he was trying to do. He looks like he needs to sit down and reboot his game, because there's no doubt he has raw ability, and it would be a crying shame if he never kicks on.'"
Agree to a degree but I'd read very little in to his World Cup form. He's played 20 mins against Lebanon when the team had fallen to bits and couldn't hold the ball and 40 mins against France when again the team had fell off a cliff. In that 40 mins he started at stand off, moved to hooker and finished in the centre.
No wonder he wasn't sure what his role was!!
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 9565 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2019 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| I know what you're saying, but what you really want to see is him grab the game by the scruff of the neck and make things happen regardless of what his role is supposed to be. Its that next step which Aussie halfbacks seem to make with ease and ours don't. In less than a season Michael Morgan has gone from support act to easily ready to start for Queensland/Australia as halfback, and there are signs Munster will do the same. Both have been brilliant in cameo roles in a variety of positions and have looked at home anywhere they're played - Munster has looked great at fullback, centre and stand off, Morgan at centre, halfback (and hooker when required).
Again off topic, but its being reported here that the Raiders are looking at McIlorum now Hodgson is injured.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4784 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"As an aside, it really looks like Williams has gone backwards this year. In the brief periods he played for england he looked like he had no idea what role he had or what he was trying to do. He looks like he needs to sit down and reboot his game, because there's no doubt he has raw ability, and it would be a crying shame if he never kicks on.'"
He's a half with no organisational skills. his style would suit FB, good runner, good passer and doesn't have to organise the play. Or as a 6 who plays off a 7, not in a split halves system.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 1619 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Oct 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"He's a half with no organisational skills. his style would suit FB, good runner, good passer and doesn't have to organise the play. Or as a 6 who plays off a 7, not in a split halves system.'"
I don't think it is a co-incidence that George looked better alongside Matty Smith (for all his faults according to some) than Tommy - what Wigan are crying out for, and have been for some time, is a 7 with good organising and kicking abilities - but where one will come form is another question.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4784 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="exiled Warrior"I don't think it is a co-incidence that George looked better alongside Matty Smith (for all his faults according to some) than Tommy - what Wigan are crying out for, and have been for some time, is a 7 with good organising and kicking abilities - but where one will come form is another question.'"
Depends how we play. We play split halves, one on the left, one on the right, they barely interact, that's why Lockers is so crucial, and he stands in the centre of the line and links the play. We often look lost and clueless without Lockers as we replace a ball player with a running forward. In this case both 6 and 7 need to organise their side of the attack and kick.
If we go old school, 6 playing off a 7 who works either side of the ruck (a little how a 10 does in Union) they George would benefit from a organising 7.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 1979 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2012 | 12 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2018 | Jan 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"
If we go old school, 6 playing off a 7 who works either side of the ruck (a little how a 10 does in Union) they George would benefit from a organising 7.'"
Can you think of a team that plays this way? I've wracked my brain and I can't think of anyone. Even at the Cowboys Thurston plays on the left and Morgan on the right. At Melbourne Cronk plays right and Munster left. Though Cronk and Thurston do go over and demand the ball occasionally, it is rare.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 1619 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Oct 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"Depends how we play. We play split halves, one on the left, one on the right, they barely interact, that's why Lockers is so crucial, and he stands in the centre of the line and links the play. We often look lost and clueless without Lockers as we replace a ball player with a running forward. In this case both 6 and 7 need to organise their side of the attack and kick.
If we go old school, 6 playing off a 7 who works either side of the ruck (a little how a 10 does in Union) they George would benefit from a organising 7.'"
We still need a half who can organise and especially kick - for a long time now Wigan have been very poor in the long kicking game, Lockers will not be around for much longer so we need something in place. George is a runner - it is what he does best plus his short passing game is improving, but he is not a good field kicker. Until someone fullfils that role - split halves or not there will always be issues. Every other club seems to have someone (or more) who takes that responsibility and does it at least to a decent standard - bar Wigan.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 4791 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2015 | 10 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Can you think of a team that plays this way? I've wracked my brain and I can't think of anyone. Even at the Cowboys Thurston plays on the left and Morgan on the right. At Melbourne Cronk plays right and Munster left. Though Cronk and Thurston do go over and demand the ball occasionally, it is rare.'"
Canberra? I'd say Aidan Sezer is the organising, kicking half-back and Blake Austin is the running five-eighth.
Agree they are the exception to the rule, though.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 2795 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2011 | 14 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2024 | Nov 2023 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="moto748"Canberra? I'd say Aidan Sezer is the organising, kicking half-back and Blake Austin is the running five-eighth.
Agree they are the exception to the rule, though.'"
Five-eighth? I thought it was stand off!
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4784 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
|
Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Can you think of a team that plays this way? I've wracked my brain and I can't think of anyone. Even at the Cowboys Thurston plays on the left and Morgan on the right. At Melbourne Cronk plays right and Munster left. Though Cronk and Thurston do go over and demand the ball occasionally, it is rare.'"
It's a good question. Usually now I see split halves, with the better halfback pairings you can see one half given more of a free role to link up with the opposite side of the pitch, this allows better players to 'play what's in front of them' rather than sticking to structures.
When Lockyer played for Aus with JT, Aus often lined up with the 6 as the second receiver, Lockyer often at times 'sat out' plays, the communication would be between the 9, Smith and JT a 7 to get the 'roll on' with the forwards etc. Lockyer then would be in a position to watch the defensive line and move either side of the ruck, always communicating with his 7 and importantly his FB (Slater) when to chime into the line to form an attack, he operated like an on-field coach.
This is now become another difference between our game RL and RU, who will shift their backs in order to attack different flanks, nearly always lining up 9 (SH) to 10 (FH) to a 12 (IC) to the 13(OS) with then options to bring in the 15 (FB) and winger. (I've even noticed at times a RU winger on the opposite flank working in the play as another option, almost like a RL FB (this is were Ashton found try scoring success with his great support play in RU.
Even if you look at some RL graphics when they line up teams ( news.bbc.co.uk/sol/shared/bsp/hi ... /image.gif) They use the old structure.
As we, as most teams employ a split halves attack both halves pretty much need to be an 'old school' 7, a ball player, skilful with hands controlling their half of the attack, this is why the FB in the modern game is so important, they are the 'new stand off' they link up as a second receiver in the line linking to the centres/wingers etc.
For me Williams doesn't control his half, at times runs around like a headless chicken, and in truth as very little to do with Tommy who is on the other side of the pitch.
I feel both 6 and 7 or shall we say 7 and 7 should be great ball players, can open up defences, can control and read a game and have a great kicking game. Game management is the key with a 13 linking between the two halves.
|
|
Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Can you think of a team that plays this way? I've wracked my brain and I can't think of anyone. Even at the Cowboys Thurston plays on the left and Morgan on the right. At Melbourne Cronk plays right and Munster left. Though Cronk and Thurston do go over and demand the ball occasionally, it is rare.'"
It's a good question. Usually now I see split halves, with the better halfback pairings you can see one half given more of a free role to link up with the opposite side of the pitch, this allows better players to 'play what's in front of them' rather than sticking to structures.
When Lockyer played for Aus with JT, Aus often lined up with the 6 as the second receiver, Lockyer often at times 'sat out' plays, the communication would be between the 9, Smith and JT a 7 to get the 'roll on' with the forwards etc. Lockyer then would be in a position to watch the defensive line and move either side of the ruck, always communicating with his 7 and importantly his FB (Slater) when to chime into the line to form an attack, he operated like an on-field coach.
This is now become another difference between our game RL and RU, who will shift their backs in order to attack different flanks, nearly always lining up 9 (SH) to 10 (FH) to a 12 (IC) to the 13(OS) with then options to bring in the 15 (FB) and winger. (I've even noticed at times a RU winger on the opposite flank working in the play as another option, almost like a RL FB (this is were Ashton found try scoring success with his great support play in RU.
Even if you look at some RL graphics when they line up teams ( news.bbc.co.uk/sol/shared/bsp/hi ... /image.gif) They use the old structure.
As we, as most teams employ a split halves attack both halves pretty much need to be an 'old school' 7, a ball player, skilful with hands controlling their half of the attack, this is why the FB in the modern game is so important, they are the 'new stand off' they link up as a second receiver in the line linking to the centres/wingers etc.
For me Williams doesn't control his half, at times runs around like a headless chicken, and in truth as very little to do with Tommy who is on the other side of the pitch.
I feel both 6 and 7 or shall we say 7 and 7 should be great ball players, can open up defences, can control and read a game and have a great kicking game. Game management is the key with a 13 linking between the two halves.
|
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4784 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="exiled Warrior"We still need a half who can organise and especially kick - for a long time now Wigan have been very poor in the long kicking game, Lockers will not be around for much longer so we need something in place. George is a runner - it is what he does best plus his short passing game is improving, but he is not a good field kicker. Until someone fullfils that role - split halves or not there will always be issues. Every other club seems to have someone (or more) who takes that responsibility and does it at least to a decent standard - bar Wigan.'"
I agree. But we need two halves. As one organises the left, and the other the right. One only operates his half of the attack.
Being a runner simply isn't good enough in a half. They need game management, passing, kicking and the ability to open up the line.
We are lacking in both halves.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4784 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Many would disagree but I feel Danny Brough would be a great 6/7 for us. Great organiser, excellent kicking game, can find a break and would be excellent and linking with a FB.
Great spot kicker as well.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 15457 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Dec 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"Many would disagree but I feel Danny Brough would be a great 6/7 for us. Great organiser, excellent kicking game, can find a break and would be excellent and linking with a FB.
Great spot kicker as well.'"
Extremely ill disciplined though. Did you know he gave away more penalties than any Wigan player last year, and led the league on sin bins (3)? That's ridiculous given that half backs don't have to make that many tackles.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4784 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Grimmy"Extremely ill disciplined though. Did you know he gave away more penalties than any Wigan player last year, and led the league on sin bins (3)? That's ridiculous given that half backs don't have to make that many tackles.'"
I think that would change in the Wigan team chasing titles. He can be a hothead granted.
|
|
|
|
|