Ben Flower did a very stupid, very bad thing tonight. It is likely that having a head made entirely out of muscle contributed to this. It is also entirely possible that, on a rugby field at least, he's not a very nice man. He plays in the front row.

So after his inevitable ban, if you want to throw him out of your club, can we have him at Leeds please? I'm sure any fan (especially those of us who remember the 80s and early 90s fondly) would like him at their club.

Which is not to condone what he did, or to say I don't think he should cop a big ban and/or take the blame for a grand final loss.

I'm not debating how bad the first contact was, I'm saying there was something there, (deliberate and unnecessary contact), for Hohaia to react too. I'm not saying he should have reacted either, it was an over the top reaction as I have said above but I wouldn't say him being knocked out was something he had coming to him.

One thing I will say that's crept into saints game recently is this taking people out on kicks. It's there in glorious technicolor over the play off series, Jordan Turner being the main instigator. The Hoahia initial contact is minimal with Flower, certainly nothing to warrant a flying forearm smash but that seems to be glossed over. He didn't connect flush or Flower just has a better chin a la Pettybourne taking one flush from Paul Wood and carrying on. My point was anyone who has played the game at any level will understand that you get smacked in the face you're likely to see someone chuck something back regardless of their past record. Flower's not shown in my experience that he is a head case but for that second punch moment he was.

If you're just here to troll, count me out. On the, admittedly slim, chance you're here to chat rugby I'll explain what I meant. Please excuse any errors as I'm commenting from being at the match and haven't had the benefit of replays so I accept I could be wrong on some observations. That said: First tackle went in and was very aggressive and looked like shoulder first from where I was sitting. 2nd tackle was quite rightly a penalty. Wigan kick to touch. Within a couple tackles of the restart Hohaia puts the elbows into Flowers face. I make that 2 or 3 borderline or illegal plays in the very first set. Now, I can't say for certain that it was a Saints tactic to 'get at' what Brown knew would be a very pumped up Wigan side but, if not, it was a fair impression of it. BTW, I'm not complaining. As I said earlier, [uIF[/u it was a tactic fair play to Saints. It was a good one. The proof of the pudding will be residing in the trophy cabinet next season.

That Masoe tackle on tv doesn't do it justice to how bad it was from the camera angle! Sat right in front of it he nearly decapitated Gelling.

Ah the Wigan thugs coming out with excuses.

Rubbish, it was not a coming together.

Flower fore arm smashes Lance from behind. He does not shove him out the way.

Lance gets up and does the same. But front on.

Flower decks him, then kneels over him and does it again.

So a red card for both. However it's described neither come out in glory do they?!

Personally I would have said 2 yellows and one red.

Others say 2 penalties and a red.

Point being it's the OTT bit on the floor that got him to be the first player in GF history to be sent off.

His punishment is Wigan going from double winners to winning nothing.

The rest is academic as it will be a new year.

And the fact no one can agree on what it should've been shows a glaring problem with the rules in the game.

No no. The vast majority are very clear on what it should of been, just a few trying to defend the indefensible. Two sets of handbags and a shocker. If Hohaia should of been sin binned for that (which he shouldn't) Bateman should of been sin binned for his efforts vs Soliola at the end of the game (but he shouldn't and wasn't)

As I recall from the Magic weekend a few years back, a scuffle got 2 players yellow. Saints and Wigan. And one Wigan red for hitting someone in a similar position unable to defend themselves.

That would seem to make sense. But he can't sin bin Flower for the initial attack and then red card him.
Not sure you can sin bin a player out cold. Or it would be a first if you can.

Either way it got Lance removed from the pitch for the entire game.

If Flower (very inappropriate surname) hadn't have punched Hohaia twice, he MIGHT not have been sent off. But please don't defend him. It was thuggery by the average prop.
Sin bin for Hohaia admittedly, though I guess the actions by Flower, meant he got sent off anyway, though Saints still had 13 players.
Ben Flower should be SACKED after tonight.

Looks like more than handbags from that still, although I understand I'd need to see the full video to be certain. Can't really see any justification for elbowing someone in the face though to be honest no matter what the severity. As for the Flower punch; straight red, no question.

No argument from me. If Flower stays on we win at a canter IMO. Biggest brain fart I've ever seen watching the game and we paid the ultimate price. Last words, credit to the remaining 16 who gave Saints plenty to contend with.

How about the initial strike from flower on lance, whilst Lance had his back turned. WOuld that be provocation???

Lance was wrong to react to the initial strike to his head. I'm not going to argue that.

But like I say, it's a yellow for Flower for striking Lance, a yellow for Lance for striking back and a red for the punch on the ground.

I didn't see the initial contact with Hohaia as I said, so I can't really comment. You say 'strike'. Was it that or a push? If it was a 'strike' then yes, I'd say it was provocation. If it was a push then I'd say no. That's something that happens several times in every game.

To be fair, Wigan Sky corporation would only show it from a distance, but it was a swinging arm from behind, can't tell if it was the arm or the fist that caught Lance, but that is why he was ed and chase flower down.

2 yellows and a red for mine. But obviously the red superceeds the Yellow for flower and the KO from the game superceeds the yellow for Lance.

Two reds for mine.

Can't go in with a forearm smash to the jaw off the ball and not see red.

But flower can't have 2 reds. Unless that makes maroon. But I'll leave you Wiganers to it to justify more Wane inspired thuggary.

2015 more cannon balls and high shots on order from Wane. He's already ordering them in on Ebay tonight.

I'd have to see it mate but, from that description, it doesn't sound like the sort of thing you should go looking for someone to elbow them in the face for. Hard to say without actually seeing it though, of course. To be honest I think yellow for chasing someone down and elbowing them in the face could be seen as a little lenient but fair enough. I've no problem with the Flower red though.

Ah right! Didn't take long did it? And you were doing so well too. Never mind. Goodnight.

Wow they did well to wind the Wigan team up in all 1 minute 50 seconds the game was on before Flower went after hohaia

I'd prefer to say Wigan (or specifically Flower) did badly to get wound up. I think there's little doubt that he DID get wound up though, so I'm not sure what the time on the clock had to do with it. Very unprofessional from Flower.

Quote ="DaveO"That is a pretty libellous comment so I'd be careful if I were you. The idea Wane sends his players out to to physically injure players with foul play is idiotic. '" Actually: Instagram.com/p/tmv_xuncIV/

Quote ="DaveO"That is a pretty libellous comment so I'd be careful if I were you. The idea Wane sends his players out to to physically injure players with foul play is idiotic. '" Actually: Instagram.com/p/tmv_xuncIV/

this +1