Lots of questions here mate so let me start at the top and work down.

Would I have offered big buck contracts to Williams and TT? I would have done whatever it took to keep Williams yes. I would have offered TT a new deal based on his form that season. I’m not sure he’s on big money?

You would have re-signed sarge? Yes, given that Gelling had gone and we had no centre, I’d say he was as good as we could have hoped for in those circumstances. I didn’t expect his form and injury issues to be so poor.

you would have allowed it to get to a point where Bateman is practically on his way out? Bateman signed a 5 year deal with an NRL clause which was a great move by Wigan. We secured a top player for 3 years minimum which he has honoured. If he goes it won’t be to a rival club and we make money from the deal. That’s just good business all round.

You would have re-signed JT? In hindsight probably not because his form never really lived up to expectations but at the time of his return I definitely would have done so. We needed a boost in the pack, added size and speed and JT could have provided that. Needless to say, injuries impacted massively on his 2nd stint.

you would have let smith go when we had no straight replacement? I’d have packed his bags for him and given him a lift to wherever he wanted to go!! The biggest mistake with Smith was signing him in the first place.

You would have not shown an interest in drinkwater, or watts when available? Drinkwater yes. I said so after the preseason friendly this year. Watts, no chance. He’s not a bad prop but he’s thicker than a blind cobblers thumb and probably will never learn!

All in all I’d say Mr Lenegan has been outstanding in his running of the club, contracts included and still I await your evidence of mismanagement of contracts.

didn't you get the message about me exaggerating? it seems that what everyone thinks on here, so i thought i'd have some fun with it.

again, I will stand by my word when I say I did not call the chairman a numpy, you assumed I did. if you took notice of the content of my responses you would know that. like I say, you just pick up on what you think will give your ego the biggest boost.

also, I never claimed you were bullying me, i'm a grown man with children out of school, i can stand on my own feet thank you - I merely claimed you were a bully.

and once again, if you care to take a look through the books as detailed on Companies House you will see for yourself that the club is spending way too much on something we don't know what it is spending it on. a turnover of £7M yet not making profits? like I say, something is amiss and i'm not saying negligence or something foul is afoot, I am merely concerned how we can be bringing in so much yet have to rely on IL etc more and more. what else is there to assume has gone on other than mismanagement of contracts etc? surely that is one of the highest costs of the club? it is simple to suggest that is why I have come to this conclusion.

again i'll reiterate one last time, if you can come back to me with valid responses to my questions i'll be happy to continue. after all, my first post on this topic was exactly that, a question. you know, where someone asks for help and then hopes to receive it? its everything you haven't done so far.

again you guys keep bringing up IL. I never pointed my finger at him, I said something at the club was amiss.

TT is on a good wage, he signed on a good wage and has probably had it increased at wigan when he signed his contract after a handful of decent games for us, since then he has been poor.

we re-signed sarge exactly because we had no room to do anything else, because we'd already blown our money on JT, ST, GW, TT etc.

the fact you didn't rate smith who contributed to a lot of success at the club with blake green by his side says a lot about your opinion. on his own, yes, he wasn't up to scratch. but it is clear to everyone that with the right partner he was at times up there with the leagues best. I suppose you'll forgive him the silverware he helped bring to the club with an opinion like that. yeah lets just pretend that didn't happen while he was a wigan player.

and to have had bateman for 3 years when we have had someone like lockers all his life, yeah i'm sorry that's not good business by wigan. KEEPING bateman would be good business. letting him leave for the clause payment would be good financially but that is all, we'd struggle to get a ready replacement for him with the same passion for the club and game. and I doubt we'd be willing to spend the same kind of money either.

all in all considering the valid points I've made, of course in reply to your valid points, I still maintain I have justified why I feel what I do. we don't have to agree, but i'm simply not happy being told i'm wrong when all i'm doing is put across my opinion.

You have taken my comment out of context, it was a joke as you said "All", and i said i had not complained.... But if it suits your argument, have fun..

So how do you explain this quote from yesterday ...

[iat no point did I profess to suggest gelling was up to no good by getting out of his contract. my point is, Wigan have not benefitted from it in any way - again - [umy point refers to the numpty who is controlling all of this at Wigan[/u. my point refers to what the bloody hell is going on, and has been for the last year or two![/i

You little fibber, saying you never called him a numpty.

Or is it the case that actually IL is not in charge? Is he like Gary Hetherington with someone else behind the scenes pulling his strings?

"Again i'll reiterate one last time, if you can come back to me with valid responses to my questions i'll be happy to continue."

You mean as I have above?

Wow, your admiration of Smith is staggering. Apart from effort and perhaps 1 good game a season he gave us nothing. We won trophies in spite of him, certainly not because of him. He was a senior player in our squad and others should have been able to turn to him when we were up against it. Instead he offered nothing and the fact he needed Green along side to carry him through games speaks volumes about his lack of ability. He got a few good drop goals which we wouldn’t have needed if he could create an opportunity to score a try and using your Smith methodology, Sarginson is a world beater because of his grand final winning performance against Warrington!

To try to compare Lockers to Bateman is laughable. Lockers is a local lad playing for his hometown club and chose to stay at Wigan. He had many offer to go to the NRL (as did Roby at Saints) but they didn’t want to go for family reasons. Bateman is a completely different kettle of fish with the biggest difference being he wants to go to the NRL. I refer to IL because as chairman any mismanagement of contracts is ultimately down to him. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this, I’m more than happy with the way the club has handled player contracts in recent years.

Bringing this to a conclusion though, I think much will be said about the club depending on how we look next season when we’ll see if the club is being managed well. I’m happy with ZH and I’m happy with Greenwood (although I don’t think he has the x-factor). Interesting couple of months ahead.

IL is present for the signing of contracts, he is not during contract negotiations. my point stands.

it suited it perfectly well thank you, considering you claimed I exaggerated then went on to say that i'd been "told this 10 million times already".

You don’t think the chairman has any input on what he pays an employee? I’d be very surprised if that was the case but I don’t know for sure either way. He clearly trusts Rad but I’m in the mindset that final agreement on the contract would be sign off by him.

a valid response and total disregard of my opinion are two very different things.

That is hands-down the daftest thing you've said so far.

He may not be there at every stage of a negotiation, but if you genuinely believe (or are just saying you believe it in order to save face) that he is not deeply involved in the construction and closure of huge financial deals for this business he owns called Wigan RL ... well, words finally fail me.

once again, taking one single comment of mine out of context and using it for a good old ego-boosting response. I didn't say I wish he was still here, I didn't say he was a good player, but I did say I thought the decision to let him go when we had no replacement was a silly decision.

we won trophys in spite of him? ha ha. bit harsh and also quite off the mark.

in fact, by your reasoning all of this is Smiths fault then?

folks, I have an answer, case closed.

You said [ueverybody[/u was complaining about there being no money to spend, i said i was not complaining, thwerefore you were exagerating on this point... If you wilfully choose to see it another way, it probably says more about you... HTH

i'm pretty sure you are right that he has a say, but the wigan players don't go direct to Mr L and say can i have a wage rise please! there are intermediaries involved and i'm pretty sure that KR would be much more involved than IL for that matter.

but at the end of the day he is the one who backed the returning players policy, the new contracts for GW and TT and he is the one who the buck stops with. however, like I have maintained over and over again he is not the one coming in on a Monday morning saying, Shaun, give out this and that contract - those dealings are dealt with elsewhere and only overseen and finalised by him.

I really can't make it much more clearer what I am trying to say.

and do you know what, if it is him, then yes he is a bloody numpty too. he can pump as much money in as you like and he can bring as much success to the club as he likes, but if his and his staffs' handling of the club means we are losing around £500k a year then is he really proving a success OFF the field and once again my question is, which has still nto been even remotely answered, where is that £7M going?!?!?!?!?

All this over Gelling going to Widnes? Christ almighty.

All of what is Smith’s fault? I haven’t said anything is his or anybody else’s fault? All I’ve said I’m happy with the way the club is being run and most of the decisions being made. I trust IL and KR to do the right thing for the club and I’m excited to see what we look like next season. If you’re happy in a world of doom and gloom good luck to you!

Quote ="WiganBurt"i'm pretty sure you are right that he has a say, but the wigan players don't go direct to Mr L and say can i have a wage rise please! there are intermediaries involved and i'm pretty sure that KR would be much more involved than IL for that matter. but at the end of the day he is the one who backed the returning players policy, the new contracts for GW and TT and he is the one who the buck stops with. however, like I have maintained over and over again he is not the one coming in on a Monday morning saying, Shaun, give out this and that contract - those dealings are dealt with elsewhere and only overseen and finalised by him. I really can't make it much more clearer what I am trying to say. and do you know what, if it is him, then yes he is a bloody numpty too. he can pump as much money in as you like and he can bring as much success to the club as he likes, but if his and his staffs' handling of the club means we are losing around £500k a year then is he really proving a success OFF the field and once again my question is, which has still nto been even remotely answered, =#FF0000where is that £7M going?!?!?!?!?'" Here, have a look. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history All the accounts are there from way back. Have a look what sort of mess Wigan were in before IL took over.

Quote ="WiganBurt"i'm pretty sure you are right that he has a say, but the wigan players don't go direct to Mr L and say can i have a wage rise please! there are intermediaries involved and i'm pretty sure that KR would be much more involved than IL for that matter. but at the end of the day he is the one who backed the returning players policy, the new contracts for GW and TT and he is the one who the buck stops with. however, like I have maintained over and over again he is not the one coming in on a Monday morning saying, Shaun, give out this and that contract - those dealings are dealt with elsewhere and only overseen and finalised by him. I really can't make it much more clearer what I am trying to say. and do you know what, if it is him, then yes he is a bloody numpty too. he can pump as much money in as you like and he can bring as much success to the club as he likes, but if his and his staffs' handling of the club means we are losing around £500k a year then is he really proving a success OFF the field and once again my question is, which has still nto been even remotely answered, =#FF0000where is that £7M going?!?!?!?!?'" Here, have a look. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history All the accounts are there from way back. Have a look what sort of mess Wigan were in before IL took over.

How is it a disregard of your opinion? Don't you know the difference between 'disagree' and 'disregard'? I clearly disagree with your opinion and have given you valid reasons why. That is the polar opposite of disregarding it.

It seems that you are unable to accept it when someone disagrees with you and throw a strop when your argument is shown to have no validity whatsoever.

You claimed Tomkins was not on a third of a million per year and would command a large transfer fee. I gave a balanced reason based on previous salaries and current market transfer fees why this was probably wrong. I even showed that even if we weighted all the figures heavily (and, as we know, unrealistically) in your favour, your premise that we would nett a return on that investment was completely wrong.

I have taken the trouble to answer you with a reasoned post. At least have the decency to afford me the same courtesy.

Either that or admit you're wrong. Either will suffice.

Wow, another one to add to my ignore list, bye bye Burt

Disregarding my opinion is basically saying ok you can think what you like I don't agree. disagreeing with my opinion is admission that I have an opinion but that yours differs. however all I experience on here from you and others on a regular basis is a regular bashing of my opinion, and not only that, claims that I my opinion is actually wrong.

how can an opinion be wrong? it cannot, its an opinion. i'm sick of coming on here for a chinwag and spending endless hours trying to justify myself to folk on here who seem to have nothing better to do other than sift through my posts and delight themselves with damning responses for their own benefit.

it has taken at least 4 pages of this kind of onslaught that i'm used to from here before someone has actually come back to me with a decent reply, evidence or constructive objection.

you wonder why folk get annoyed on here, you wonder why folk don't go to games any more. who needs enemies with fellow fans like this?

I stand by and maintain my points raised in this topic and will say nothing more on the matter. this is a forum for opinions, and it is my opinion. I suggest if you are the ones who don't like it that you are the ones who refrain from rising to the temptation to respond.

how thoughtful and grown up of you, thank you.

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"Here, have a look. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history All the accounts are there from way back. Have a look what sort of mess Wigan were in before IL took over.'" first of all rogues thank you for actually responding with something of relevance. however, i'm really not interested in what the club used to be run like, i'm concerned with how it is being run now. that is not me ignoring your response and contribution, I merely mean to say that I've already been down that route and that is what brought me here. thanks again.

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"Here, have a look. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history All the accounts are there from way back. Have a look what sort of mess Wigan were in before IL took over.'" first of all rogues thank you for actually responding with something of relevance. however, i'm really not interested in what the club used to be run like, i'm concerned with how it is being run now. that is not me ignoring your response and contribution, I merely mean to say that I've already been down that route and that is what brought me here. thanks again.

You seriously don't understand that you can have an incorrect opinion? Really? If I told you it was my opinion that the world was flat or that black was white you're telling me that by default that would be correct because it was my opinion? Opinions can be right, wrong, well informed, misinformed and many shades in between. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be allowed to have your opinion. I'm arguing that it's wrong and I've explained why. Interesting, don't you think, that YOU'VE changed the point of discussion from whether your opinion is right or wrong to one of 'my opinion shouldn't be challenged whether it is or not because its mine'. Might I suggest that if you don't want your opinion challenged you don't post it on a public forum!

You also accuse people of dismissing your opinion but that's exactly what you're doing! You are not the arbiter of what is valid and what is not. I've given you good reasons why your initial premise was wrong. Despite your dismissiveness and obstinacy I've never once resorted to impoliteness or attempted to belittle your opinion. Merely tried to offer an alternative viewpoint that I believe illustrates why you were mistaken in your belief. I'll say it again; why not afford me the same respect?

You are convinced you are right. Explain to me why. Explain how investing potentially in the region of a million pounds on a new contract for Sam Tomkins would generate a nett profit when we move him on for a few tens of thousands (even assuming that anyone would pay it in the first place!)

Any chance of an actual answer this time or would you prefer to keep bickering?