I think as you look back over the decades players in the past had more space and time to showcase their skills. I’m not saying they were any more or less skilful than today’s counterparts they just had the opportunity to show it.

Just as an example if you watch back games from the late 80’s early 90’s the play the ball was far quicker, defences were not set and it showed.

I don’t buy the argument that past players couldn’t play today, they would fail miserably if dropped them straight in but if they had the same conditioning, nutrition and professional Set up rather than a cup of tea and a slice of orange at half time they would be fine. If today’s players hopped in a time machine it would be men v boys for the same reason.

We always remember the past with fondness, I guarantee in 20 years we’ll be saying they don’t make players like SOL or Sam T anymore.

If we want creative freedom & space for the players who have the skill to exploit it then we need to adjust the rules to give it to them.

Your argument is daft and over complicated as usual.

You say the game has moved on but that is exactly the problem. It has moved on, to something worse. Why do you think the interest in the game is on the decline? Its because people are bored at matches. People dont want to give up time and spend money to watch 2 teams repeating the same structures over and over for 80 minutes until a mistakes allows one team to get the upper hand. They want to be entertained, they want to see players run plays that are exciting to watch.

The game peaked in the 90's when coaches such as John Monie had teams playing with elements of the modern game mated with the best bits of the past. His teams played tight and structured but would open up and run set plays when the time was right. This is the kind of style we should be aiming for.

I disagree. Ive been watching a lot of old games recently and the PTB was very slow most of the time. Holding down was far more tolerated back then. In fact, a defender would have to go to sleep on the attacker for the ref to blow for a penalty. The RFL tried to clean this area up and made it worse IMO. Now you have 26 dive machines throwing themselves on the floor milking penalties. Very ugly to watch. Id rather have more holding down with the attacking player fighting to get up rather than fighting to stay down.

Ok - Here Goes

No1 - If you cared to read my post you'll find that on numerous occasions I state that the game isn't as exciting as it used to be (But you seem intent on having a pop so lets get to it).
You state & admit that the game moving on is the problem, so your agreeing it has moved on???
That's all I was saying - Whether we like it or not it's moved on and the best defensive techniques and structures, the best physical conditioning & Tactics are being implemented - And in another 30 years they'll have moved on again!

Now then - What makes you think that getting Andy Greg back in to teach someone how to do a run around or whatever 80s/90s move you thought was brilliant back in the day would Work now?
Do you not the think that the greatest rugby league minds in the world are working as we speak on breaking defences down and if it were that simple they'd have done it? You don't have a monopoly on Open minded thinking you know.

You say my argument is over complicated (And daft) but that's the issue.
The game plans/structures today are so much more complicated and intricate that it's much harder to play against than it used to be.

I'm not saying todays game is better
I'm not saying todays players are more exciting/better as individuals etc or have more skill

I am saying, as You agree it seems, that the game has moved on - And if people/coaches/the game use the best ideas and cut out the things that don't work than it only stands to reason that things get better - It just may be that they are all cancelling each other out.
So instead of 1 person running under 10 seconds and being the best in the world we now have Dozens of athletes running under 10seconds
Carl Lewis was the first Automatic timed athlete to go under 10seconds in 1983 and although there were others (Not including Ben Johnson) who occasionally lowered it by the time we got to the 2012 Olympic final 7 Athletes were under 10secs - Ergo Athletes are getting Better
But IMO Carl Lewis is still the Greatest Athlete - He just wouldn't win if he were transported at his peak and performed to the level he did 30 years ago in todays races.
Give him 20 years of the advantages of the modern day athlete and yes there's every chance he would

Your answer seems to be go back to what worked 30 years ago and make it work now
And whilst there may be elements that may or could work I am sure they are being used in their modern day ways and tweaked to fit todays game.

Very easy to sit on a keyboard and keep trotting out the same line over and over again
We should copy what our heroes of the 80s/90s used to do and we would be the best again because they were the best then

Have you thought about taking that logic into the amateur game and coaching at that level?
I'm sure there are opportunities there for you to test out these theories
What I will say is that there are Thousands of Amateur & Professional coaches out there, all striving for that 1% Edge - Maybe they should all just go back to the 80s/90s DVD's and copy them?
Your original post said there are no teams today that could score a try like the 1st try in the 95 World cup final
Now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and presume you mean some other game as a kick to the corner and a winger in Rod Wishart who doesn't look like he grounds it is hardly a resounding endorsement of the game in the past.
You could also look at the disallowed try in the 1st half where Offiah breaks away and then is deemed in touch when he passes inside, He wasn't and only if we had a Video Ref to decide on both we may have been World Champs.

But we didn't have a video Ref - And to try and draw an analogy - although the Video ref can be a pain in the Arris and a lot of people deem it to be of detriment to the modern game it does in fairness get more decisions correct than we used to - So it's Better
And if we want to get rid of the Video ref and go back to a simpler day when a ref made his decision and we just got on with it and didn't scrutinise every decision Thousands of times and then criticise it a million times on social media then fair enough, but it won't happen, because things move on.

Same as if we want to throw the ball about, try different moves, play exciting rugby and not worry about the Risks then fair enough.
But the critics on here, Facebook etc will absolutely slaughter the coach/players when that Risky exciting rugby goes wrong and doesn't pay off. Other teams will also adapt and expose the problems with playing that type of rugby and exploit it.

I will repeat
I'm not saying the Game is Better to watch now
I'm not saying the players are better or more exciting to watch now

But the game needs to solve those problems by looking forward not back - Some of the rule changes including faster restarts and less substitutions will help a bit, but players are only going to get bigger/fitter/stronger/faster as a whole and as coaches spend more and more time evolving structures etc. it will get harder and harder to break these down.

Oh & BTW - I'm honoured that you think my arguments are over complicated & Daft
Given some of your posts in the past I would be horrified and worried for my own sanity if you agreed with them

Can't be bothered, Also it's my point to prove

Didn’t think you would somehow.

Shaun Edwards
Bobbie Goulding
Mike Ford
Andy Gregory
Iestyn Harris
Tony Smith
Deryck Fox
There, can't be bothered doing anymore, Any of those players at their best would boss it in the super evolved modern era super league
IN MY OPINION

No need to be so surly.

You seem to want to over complicate the matter again.

Just because most teams have adopted this boring 'stick to the script' approach does not mean it is now the only way all teams must play. Its junk thinking and narrow minded. What confused players years ago will still confuse them today. If there are 4 players running at you all at different angles and each one is in a position to receive the ball then it is still as confusing as it was 30 years ago. You seem to think that todays players are all AI controlled and can think faster than they did 30 years ago.

To move the game on you have to break from the mould. Good coaches are not afraid to try something different and evolve. Saints did it last year and played much looser and more like a 90's team under Holbrook and they had a superb season bar the CC final in which they just had an off day. Indeed, under Madge, we too played more like a 90's team and ran set plays when the time was right. Im not saying throw the whole modern game out of the window and play entirely like a team from 30 years ago, im saying merge the best bits from 30 years ago with todays game.

You growl at the prospect of bringing Andy Gregory in to help but last year, how many times were we camped in the opposition 20 unable to score and not looking likely to score? We were crying out for a set play and didnt have one.

Don’t think any you listed are a patch on...

Thurston
Cronk
Lockyer
Pearce
Etc.

This is coming from someone who’s fav all time 7 is Andy Greg.

I think people are easily mislead. The game has moved on. It’s so much faster, bigger bodies playing at such a pace. Decision time is way less; the ‘run around’ and other individual plays no longer work against such players.

Thesedays our halfbacks are as big as forwards from the 80s and have way more skills. For example Mitchell Pearce, a 7 is actually bigger than his father who represented Aus as a forward.

If you transported a young Andy Greg in a time machine to 2019; he’d be creamed and stopped in his tracks before he could try a run around.

Sport evolves, as each team, league strives for success and an edge over their opposition.

Who cares, Jesus, Why can't you get your head round the fact we are talking about the state of Super League the frigging NRL has naff all to do with it

You have raised a fair point there IMO. A very good post but for the last paragraph. I get the nostalgia and the thinking behind it but in reality he’s been out of the professional game for a long time. I just don’t get this desire to bring back players of old to coach because they were half decent (in the case of Gregory he was far more than half decent and likewise to LSOW he was my favourite 7 too), the game has changed, they’ve been out the pro game for far too long to be effective IMO.

We’re talking about the quality of RL today versus yesteryear. That’s the whole point to my last post. If you don’t like my posts feel free to Ignore them.

Whereas I like your posts. They’re funny.

Over complicated, daft and now surly.
I'll let you crack on, go and get Greg and I'm sure adrian Lam will love having him involved. We can always go and get Gary Schofield as well?

PS
If you think Madges rugby was off the cuff then I suspect you may be trying to shoehorn something into fit into your argument.
Madges team were so good because they were far more organised, structured, stronger, fitter etc. They then used those advantageous and played off the back of it.
If you think they sat down and watched a few videos of the old days and then just copied then then your in a stranger world than I thought. There were "Moves", and tactics Madge employed allowed Roberts/Tomkins to play off the back of it when the time was right.
If they werent so dominant in the other areas of the game they wouldn't have been able to do that.
That's what this team is missing, the dominance and structure in lots of other areas in the game to demoralised the opposition.
The attacking part of the game.will improve off the back of that.
But if you dont tackle well, defend well, kick well, hold onto the ball well, run harder and stronger than the opposition then you'll find trying to play rugby under the backdrop of that is far far harder.

I have been Christmas grocery shopping all day in Barrow, I apologise for any saltyness

Enjoy your Xmas mate. And let’s hope for a good 2020 in cherry and white

Show me where i said Madges team played off the cuff. I didnt, you are trying to put words into my mouth. I said they ran set moves. Whether or not it was around Roberts or Tomkins makes no difference, they had set plays which involved various ways of confusing defenders and creating openings rather than this single idea of swinging the ball left to right along the line.



I have never said dont have structure and dont try to dominate the opposition with the basics. I have merely argued for some entertaining set plays and more variety to our attack at the right times. The easy way to do that is look at some of the stuff teams of the past used to play and shoehorn them in to the modern game. Since Andy Gregory was a master at pulling off set plays then it would be a good idea to have him try to recreate some of them with the current team which they could then use when we are stuck on the opposition line and the usual left/right ball swinging is not working. You seem to be comparing apples and oranges and coming up with bananas. Your argument seems to be that nothing will work other than what we are doing now because most teams play the same way.

I accept i used the term off the cuff instead of set plays incorrectly.
Point still stands, it was done within structure and after gaining dominance in other areas of the game.

As for me trying to put words into peoples mouths I think you need to have a look at your own posts first.

Let's get back to the initial point.
You think watching DVDs and implementing plays from the 80s/90s in tandem with getting Andy Greg back to oversee some of this is the way forward.

I dont

Well leave it at that?

Kenny, Lewis, Daley, Langer, Fittler, Johns, Lamb, Mortimer, Raudonikis, Stuart, Lyons and Sterling....think you'll find I win

And to you and yours, Looking forward to next season, Hope we can pull off a CC final win

Some good points taken onboard and I think we broadly agree. I think we're we probably don't entirely agree is that I think we have gone way ott on fitness and structure at the expense of individualism and skills.
Could it be that improving players skills other than defending is a lot harder and more time consuming than fitness work etc? Do coaches take the "easier option"?

In a nutshell I just want a bit more excitement from the game ideally with fast open competitive rugby. I don't want 42-38 games I love a tight physical game but a tight physical game with the odd moment of genius or superlative skill that you wait to get back to the pub to regale about.
As I've said on previous posts the game historically works in cycles so I'm hopeful the day of the wrestle and incessant 5 drives and a kick won't last forever. I'm not convinced about LM but more than happy to be proven wrong that he can instill/allow a more attractive style into our game

Don’t forget I was told that it was all about super league and the English game. So while you’ve dipped into the NRL and albeit some of the players on the list had minimal time playing here; you’ll need to revise your list.

Ps I love how you end your post with ‘I win’ my 5 year old nephew would do exactly the same.

Don’t forget I was told that it was all about super league and the English game. So while you’ve dipped into the NRL and albeit some of the players on the list had minimal time playing here; you’ll need to revise your list.

Ps I love how you end your post with ‘I win’ my 5 year old nephew would do exactly the same.

First things first
A Number of times this thread has mentioned that the games not as exciting - I've said it numerous times I agree - But that's a different subject.
The issue I have is that simply saying we want the game to be more exciting isn't going to stop the coaches from looking for that winning edge and Winning comes first - Also because the game isn't as exciting it's too simple to equate that to less skill, the Skills may be in different areas than they used to be but it's like saying that players of yesteryear couldn't tackle, they could, the emphasis though just wasn't on them defending as well and as structured as it is now.
The players of today are skilful, they just have to be skilful in ways that fit into the structures being coached.
With regards to going way OTT on fitness that's the issue though, We can't stop teams getting Bigger stronger, faster etc.
I feel the game needs to tweak the rules to assist us in Opening up the game more, reduced Substitutions, shot clock and quicker restarts will go some way to doing this by bringing in more of a fatigue factor leading to more space for "Flair" type players and attack to exploit it.

What I will say though is the interesting point you make about :-
"Could it be that improving players skills other than defending is a lot harder and more time consuming than fitness work etc? Do coaches take the "easier option"? "

I coach in a different sport, a sport that IMO has a better balance between Fitness & the Core Skills of the game (Cricket - With players U20 down to 7/8yr olds).
I've coached for 15 years now and learned a lot in that time and I do think that "The Coaching Manual" tends to teach coaches how to do things By the Book so to speak. That in itself can lead to a stagnant way of doing things and occasionally it needs innovation or outside the box thinking.

I've already Bored the pants off people too much so don't want to go on too much but Many years ago A player of mine was struggling in certain areas Batting. He had gone from being a free flowing/natural type player into someone who just looked so out of place at the crease he looked like a different person. Now he'd gone through a few issues "off the field" and my natural reaction was to talk "technique", Basics, focus on what he was doing wrong and work on those errors in his game and to be honest for a month or so we weren't getting anywhere fast.

I was going to look at some more intensive coaching from better/more qualified coaches than myself when an experienced guy I spoke to said he'd gone through something similar with a player a few years earlier.
His answer - Go into the nets, throw a hundred Balls at him and forget everything, forget technique, forget detail - just hit them, enjoy hitting them
We did this for a couple of sessions and the old player came back, started the season well, remained in the representative team and performed as well as he had ever done previously if not better.
I've used that 2/3 times more with players who seem to be struggling and it's amazing how if you remove all of the technical stuff and free up their minds to "Just Play" it can help.
The paradox is that you can't just do that in isolation - Because the game will expose other weaknesses that you have to work on and invariably those who work the hardest and focus on other teams weaknesses, and work on their own structures etc. invariably win.

So I do think that coaches do often "Take the easy option" although I would word it more along the lines of they get Stuck in their world, focus on the textbook too much and the problems they have they look for the answers within the same structures and working harder on those when that got them into those problems in the first place.

It's very complicated with everyone looking for that 1% winning edge and the answer for each player/team/coach isn't always the same, what works well for "A" may not work as well for "B" and that's what separates the winners from the Losers.

I'm not Lam's biggest fan and I do believe he spent the 2nd half of the year putting things Back in place defensively that had been overlooked early on in the year for the idea of playing a more "Open" type rugby. It was only when we got things defensively better that IMO we could start to play with the ball a bit better.
Ultimately it wasn't good enough and I think it took too much out of the tank catching up on the bad start but it showed to me that you can't just decide to Play more open, you still have to have the structures and systems that sit behind it.

yeah we told you that 3 times but you kept mentioning them so I thought id add some abck to you....none of your list had any playing time here so you might need a rethink also

So stick to your own rules.
Merry Christmas son. Have a good one