I seem to remember from school that someone found a flag in a cave with some bloke's face on it. Turin shroud I think it was called. That must be up there with the earliest.

Why aren't pavements flagged anymore?

This thread is going on a bit, I'm flagging.

I have always admired Wigan, but I must say that I do fear that St Helens and Warrington are moving ahead of them with their independence as RL Clubs and with no links to football stadia.

Both these teams should be complemented, attempts to ignore their development, growth and independence is futile. I actually hope that you can get a stadium to truly call your own one day. In the meantime playing 2nd fiddle to latics has unfortunetly been accepted for too long by Wigan Rugby.

Your a proud club with a fantastic home support, your day will come.

Seeing as neither town are "fortunate" enough to not have a football team within the first 5? or is it more? Divisions of football then it was never really going to be an issue for either of them was it.

That is correct and that certainly works in our favour, the fact that you play 2nd fiddle to a premier league club does not help Wigan Rugby League Club. I not having a go at you, don't be so defensive. Wigan RL is not only one of the biggest RL clubs in Britain, but in the world as well, Latics are a struggling premier league team. Enough said on that one.

St Helens and Warrington have had to put up with the sheds, we called Knowsley Road and Widerspool for years, Warrington have the HJ stadium which they are currently improving and we are finally moving into Langtree Park, our superb purpose made RL Stadium, with the bonus of proper terracing at each end. I am sure a lot of your fans would love to be doing the same with your own ground independent to the soccer club? =#FF0040or do you truly not aspire that for Wigan RL?

Yeah, I'm so jealous that both our rivals have new grounds with insufficient capacties compared to our current level of support. Last season Wigan RL recorded attendances

[uLarger than Langtree Park & HJ capacities[/u

St George - 24,268
Wire - 21,056
Stains - 24,057
Hudds - 19,169
Crusaders - 19,104


[uLarger than HJ Capacity[/u

Hull FC - 15,346
Catalans - 13,134
Hull KR - 14,779
Leeds - 16,426
Salford - 13,607
Bradford - 13,940

I suggest you go away and worry how you're going to fill the damn thing. Cause the history books show that when it comes to home support (even with unprecedented success), yours is severely lacking.

Also I find it highly ironic that you've come on here crowing about how proud you are that your club are independent from wendyball when your avatar (for a RL forum) shows some scouse muppet kissing the wendyball Champions League Trophy.



Forever in our Shadow lad.

I guess that has informed me that you have no aspirations to have your own ground, its told me that Wigan RL are quite happy to play 2nd rate to latics, I am actually surprised, but if thats an indication of the way things are at Wigan RL, then I consider myself now informed.

The three best Superleague grounds Wigan, Hull and Hudersfield are shared facilities. I don't know about Hull and Hudersfield but Wigan pay 10% of their gate receipts for use of the Stadium (to DW not to Wigan Athletic) so have a much reduced cost base. Saints have had to borrow money to complete the stadium, so how much interest are they paying on that loan? Saints last published losses were £1.3 million and a wage bill of approaching £4 million. That was for the season prior to the the Widnes one, so how long is it going to take to recover those losses/ loans? The last estimate I saw was 10 years.

If Latics continue to slip maybe IL will buy the DW, who knows, but it's not a major problem is it? The partnership at Central Park will produce revenues from outside the game.

Let's hope the UK is not covered in snow and ice on the 20th January when Widnes visit, they wouldn't want that (along with the fact they decided against installing undersoil heating) to spoil the big party would they?

Anyone know the reason why they decided against installing under soil heating?

It can't have just been the cost of installation. Because the revenue they'll lose from postponed games due to lack of under soil heating will be a far more costly in the long term.

I suppose that considering how many games have been called off because of frozen pitches in the last , say 10 years is so small it wasnt felt that spending however many thousands of pounds on it was felt it wasnt worth it , fair enough in my opinion, , this thread is getting silly now, it sounds like a playground shouting contest " my dad is bigger than your dad" , the fact remains that both sets of fans (in the main) are happy at what they jhave , in our case, we are VERY happy at what we have got much as we loved the old place, it was long past its best , and to move into Langtree Park is magnificent, so we will agree to disagree on our respective clubs eh?

Summer Rugby.......



you have one or two poorly attended friendly games with reduced ticket prices but possibly full operating cost of the stadium ..... how can you convince any bank manager that that is a great investment........

if our boxing day game against widnes is cancelled so what we'll be playing souths at redfern oval and they dont have undersoil heating either......

Saints first home game is the 10th of February. Not very summer like to me.

Postponed season friendlies isn't the problem. Postponed league games are. The possible loss of corporate supporters and decrease in ticket sales due to midweek rearranged fixtures. It probably won't happen often but from time to time it inevitably will.

I think Saints new ground looks a cracker and I'm genuinely looking forward to visiting it, I just finding it intriguing that they didn't install under soil heating.

Some interesting cost info here (Go 2/3rds of the way down).

[urlhttp://www.rugbyfootballhistory.com/scotland.html[/url

In 1991 it cost £250k to install undersoil heating at Murrayfield and the running costs were between £400-£900 per game. Inflation between then and now is a little over 60% (But maybe energy inflation is more??) but given like for like costs a similar project would cost say £400k. I doubt very much that any RL club would even consider installing UH either in a new build or in an already built stadium.

The whole argument for "Wigan RL Having their own stadium" keeps cropping up time and time again. As does the "Wigan RL play second fiddle to Latics". It's more Sky who mess around with fixtures which causes the conflics. As we've been informed time and time again, D Whelan is a Rugby League fan also, and often attends the games.

Would I want Wigan RL to have their own stadium outside DW? No. The DW Stadium, being used by both sports, is in use year round, this means it's not left to fall apart over the down-season. We're not having to pay the upkeep on a stadium that isn't in use. The DW Stadium is a year round money spinner, there's no need to struggle to make money for it while it's open to maintain it while it's not. Additionally, what's the point in having two large sporting venues in one town?

At the same time, Saints now have a replacement for Knowsley Road. But there isn't a professional Football Team in the town to share with.

Different towns, different situations...

Lets not forget we have another RL team in the borough too, we are in a totally different position to Stains. Rather a poor show that they have not done it before, they do like to tell us that they are the most succesful side in the SL era, but have treated there fans and visitors to sub standard facilities for years.

Reet back to the original topic...

Got a piccy of the NEW Stains banner and its a corker

Why? Undersoil heating is not cheap. For just a handful of games every year it is hardly worth the outlay. However, Saints have invested heavily in the pitch itself. It has been designed such that it can take a significant rainfall without any undue effects whatsoever. I think spending on that rather than undersoil heating is a far more sensible option given the amount of rain we get in a year. Also, one of the selling points to the council during the planning phase was that it was a 'green' stadium. It has a special kind of boiler (no idea about the technicalities of it but it is 'green') and uses rainwater for plumbing needs. There are other green features as well. Installing undersoil heating could hardly be called green I should imagine.

I don't know why some Wigan fans are obsessed with the relative sizes of the two stadia. Wigan is a bigger town and so a higher number of supporters would be expected, has had access to a newer stadium for a lot longer (Knowsley Road was off putting to Saints fans for a long time) and has a premier league soccer club sharing the facilities (soccer generally attracting greater numbers than rugby league). 18,000 is fine for Saints. The club has now sold 9000 season tickets, which is a first, and the magic number 10,000 is not beyond the realms of possibility given the length of time to the start of the new season. Building bigger was feasible but at the time of designing the club believed it preferable (and more realistic) to keep the capacity similar to Knowsley Road but build the stadium to a higher spec. I'm glad they did that as it is a fantastic stadium. I can't see Saints ever needing more than 18,000 places but it would be great if one day we did.

On the point about the club 'treating' the fans to substandard facilities, that fans had to go to Knowsley Road for so long was not actually the club's fault. For the last 20 years the club has been trying, and failing, to secure the necessary finance and planning permission to build a new stadium. Ten years ago they got as close as putting up a sign announcing the new stadium, strangely enough on the same site as the new stadium now stands. Given the costs involved in cleansing and servicing any site where a new stadium could be built, the club needed the financial support of the Council, which it didn't fully secure until we had a hung Council. It was during that period that the money for infrastructure work to the former UGB site was forthcoming from the Council and planning permission was granted. The club had the right man in charge to take the process forward and hey presto, we have a new stadium.

I would have thought that building a new stadium where the spectators were guaranteed to stay dry would have been a good idea. Whoever signed off that initial Saints stadium should have been shot (best Jeremy Clarkson mode) However we all know Mr. Teflon will blame someone else. The fact that Saints have had to borrow a large amount of money to complete the project is being swept to one side. They would rather talk about a bloody bridge with lights.



The fur coat and no knickers stadium is probably an apt description.



But the point regarding undersoil heating is valid.

You won't find many Saints fans disagreeing with you on that point, me included. It was worse, too, because originally there was no wall around the stadium either. It was due to be a wooden fence! However, as has been said many times before, planning permission has been granted for perforated cladding to be installed around the rest of the stadium. While that might not be completed by the start of the new season, it will be completed shortly after.


You seem to be inordinately obsessed with the fact that Saints have borrowed money to build a brand new stadium. I would like to know of one organisation that does not borrow money for a new build. Can you suggest one? Also to be borne in mind is that due to the current economic climate, Taylor Wimpey wanted £1.5 million less for the purchase of Knowsley Road than had originally been agreed and given that Taylor Wimpey were a major partner in the whole thing going ahead, Saints had no choice but to negotiate down. That accounts for a sizeable chunk of the money loaned and is hardly the fault of Saints. The new cladding will account for some more and then there are fit out costs which the club has to pay for in addition to the build.

But Saints have secured some excellent sponsorship, they have sold all their corporate boxes, they have sold 9000 season tickets (10,000 and they will have earned well over £2 million in season ticket sales alone for 2012) and there are already corporate events being booked into the stadium. You have no idea of the level of revenue Saints are securing to fund their loan, which given it was provided by a friend of the chairman means it will likely be at a competitive rate.

Your obsession with our finances looks decidedly unhealthy.


That's coz it's a frickin awesome bridge. Oh, and the Council paid for that, not Saints.

What of this council funding you suddenly agree with?

My folks, and a good number of Wigan fans, live in Garswood, and pay their Council tax to St Helens... it is very much of their opinion that they would rather see their council tax spent on public services, not private ventures. I'm not actually certain it's legal to spend council money on private ventures....

I agree with any Council funding that brings jobs to the town, which is exactly what this Council funding has done.


Very good. They can always move to Wigan if they don't like what they see.

Why should they? They've lived there well before the backhanded councillers were in "power". The council are supposed to be the voice of the people.