This is key, the seaosn has really started now, its sink or swim time, Saturday is massive in relation to everything Noble is trying to do and everything IL expects.

Which is turn the club around from a miss managed club on a downward spiral to a club that has now good foundations and has been within 80mins of a Grand Final for the last 2 years and is very likely to win silverware or at least make a final this year. The team is starting to come together now and play the way he wants them to he deserves to get chance to finish the job he came to do and no doubt I.L. will give him the chance

He has won nothing at Wigan and if he fails to deliver this year any significant improvement he has more in common with Cullen than his own past record. Past success is no guarantee of future performance etc.

Dave

It takes time it is not and never was an overnight fix like so many others the club tried and failed in

Running the club is IL's job. Coaching the team is Noble's and Noble will rightly be judged on his success or failure on that score. So far the facts are we have gone backwards each year under Noble. Verifiable facts not opinion.

Two brief flurries in the playoffs mask two very poor league campaigns and they were a big reason why we only got within 80 minutes of a grand final and not to the final itself. We were spent from having to start from lower down the league. But this has already been said before and I thought was pretty much accepted as the accepted wisdom on his record. It is not what you are cracking it up to be by a long chalk.

When I pay what I do for season tickets two wins and a loss meaning an exit from the play-offs do not make up for the previous league seasons dross performances two years running.

Dave

We have?

Sorry I thought we came 3rd in the competition last year?

What exactly are these facts that you speak of?

3 1/2 years is the time he will have had by the end of this season. That is plenty of time. 3 1/2 years is not an overnight fix and one of Noble's biggest failings is his failure to get what on paper was a decent side to perform in 2007 and 2008. Please none of this "it wasn't his team" rubbish because that is no excuse and never was. God knows where it came from in the first place.

Dave

Ahh. Dave O treating his opinion as fact again.

You don't get it do you Dave O (or maybe you do, but are unwilling to admit it).

Superleague, in it's current form is nothing more than a few teams "Jockying for position" until the end of the season when a cup competition kicks in.

Now you may not like that, but that is the framework in which teams operate.


As many of us have said, form at this part of the season is relatively unimportant. It's form in September/October that matters.


If you don't like the rules, then write to Red Hall, but to criticise a coach for applying himself within those rules (and doing so very well), is illogical.

Frankly it suggests a level of intelligence much lower than I know you possess.

It came from common sense. Exactly the same thing happened over at Man U and no-one would argue Fergusson is a poor coach because he took a while to 'get his team together' before finally going on to win something. Don't forget he was o the verge of being sacked too when fans got impatient! I know hindsight is 20/20 but surely there is a lesson to be learned there given we have finally started to play the type of rugby we have all been crying out for! Let's see how we go from here and just give Nobby and the team our full backing as fans. We have our part to play too. If, as you say, it's a false dawn, then fair enough, but until or if that proves to be the case....

He truely cant win. We are now playing the rugby people want, but the fact is has taken the team time to gel into a new style isn't good enough.

I would love these people who throw around phrases like "sub par" & "unacceptable" to have a go themselves.

Now you are just taking the Micky the club was in a terrible state when he came and it was a 5 year plan that was put in place not a 1 year or even 3 year. Relegation fodder 1st year to 80 mins of the playoffs second and 3 year and i do believe we will make a final if not win something this year. As i see it if you don't like the way the team play for half of the year don't renew your season ticket until the half year deals come out. things needed fixing at the club and we are very close now to all the repair jobs being completed Tunnel vision is no good look at the big picture we are getting there.

You know very well what they are.

There are three records you can judge him by. His record in the playoffs, in the cup and in the league.

We finished the same position in the play offs in 2007 and 2008. So no change but no improvement either.

2008 we exited the cup earlier than in 2007. The means we went backwards in the cup competition. Or do you dispute that?

2008 we recorded fewer league wins than in 2007 so we went backwards yet again. We even ended up with a negative points difference in 2008 which was again worse than 2007. So we went backwards here as well.

So overall in the three competitions we have had no change in one and went backwards in the other two. Now you would have to be a pretty odd person to conclude anything other than we went backwards on that evidence. I am sure however you are poised at your keyboard to argue otherwise.

Dave

1. Playoffs - we came 3rd. With the imbalance in the squad that he inherited, it was probably the best we could have done.


2. Cup - 2 years isn't statistically significant. A sample size of 2 would be laughed out of any serious statistical analysis.

3. League - as I have said, is irrelevant.



Tell me why I am wrong.

Are you seriously suggesting when Noble was employed by Mo and DW they put a 5 year plan in place? If so why no five year contract? It is fanciful to suggest there was a five year plan put in place when Noble was taken on. Or had you forgotten it wasn't IL who employed him?





On the evidence of one game?

Dave

Serious question for you then Dave. Given that we are currently showing a positive points difference, despite our poor start, are playing the best attacking rugby in many seasons and maybe even beginning to match that with something like a good defence, what would you consider an acceptable improvement this season given that all the points you bring up are beginnining to be addressed.

Ill tell you now, he will say No.

Someone recently posted the win ratios for the previous three seasons and they certainly seemed to back up Dave's argument here. I'm sorry about this but Dave is right, the team has been going backwards since '07.

I don't want to seem negative, and it is really good that there is some optimism and ambition back at the club and amongst the fans, but I'm just trying to be realistic.

That doesn't mean that we won't now see the team move forwards, put together a good cup run and move quickly up the table with a lengthy streak of wins. I hope we do, obviously.

But being realistic I can't say that I'm getting my hopes up too much. Maybe if we go the next couple of months unbeaten I'll start to dream of a GF win.... but for the moment I remain a bit sceptical.

But again I put the same question to you DG.


The league competition is all about jockying for position until September. There is then a cup competition to decide the season.

Those are the rules and any coach worth his salt will play to them, and more importantly optimise his team to perform within them.

The cup is a different beast admitedly, but again it's a knockout competition and I am not sure we can draw any conclusions on 2 years worth of that.


The League is irrelevant (or if you prefer very very very unimportant).


Btw I have no desire for this to turn into a slanging match. I am genuinely interested in being told why I am wrong here, as I cannot see that I am.

You can't have it both ways. If what you say is correct that a sample of two would be laughed out of any statistical analysis then so would your assertion that there is any significance to his playoff record at Wigan. Quite clearly by your own measure a sample of two in the playoffs is equally irrelevant but you base your entire case on it.

However facts are facts and the period we are concerned with is his time at Wigan so that is the only "sample" we have to go on and we did worse in the cup in 2008 than 2007 and that remains a fact.

So as I see it you can do one of two things. Write off his record in the playoffs as statistically irrelevant or agree we went worse in the cup over the period under discussion. Which is it? Your choice.



You can repeat it as often as you like but saying the league record is irrelevant is complete nonsense. And as you are so fond of statistical samples a much wider one than two seasons worth proves that to be the case with only one winner of SL outside the top 2 since the play offs started. That is why you are wrong on this one, or are statistics now going to be out of fashion since they inconveniently disprove your assertion?



Spelt out above.

Dave

Don't worry BK, I only do slanging matches with Stains supporting SC fanatics...





Let's leave aside the fact that I really do not like watching a Wigan team put in a shameful performance like say the Hudds game last season or some of the dross that was served up at the start of this season. I do take the point that the league is not really a goal in itself anymore, but the reality is that if you finish below the top 2 spots history shows it is very difficult to win the GF. (The SL hasn't been won from below 3rd has it, and from 3rd I think only once or twice?).

I know that this year's play-off system is different, maybe it will be easier to win from a lowly position but I think we just leave ourselves too much to do. I'm also not convinced that its really as easy as it sounds to take it easy early on in the season and then switch on a higher level of performance; particularly as for me there remain big question marks about the fitness and conditioning regime at Wigan (though things do seem to have improved in the last 2-3 games).

As for the cup, I'm bitterly disappointed with the way Wigan have performed in the last few years. I'd love a trip to Wembley and think it could really help spark a Wigan revival. I really do hope we don't crash out again.

We came third in a 2 horse race. We did not gain any ground on Leeds or Saints and dropped deeper into the chasing pack.

What does statistical significance have to do with anything? Are you now saying it is impossible to compare results over 2 years? Why do statistics have to be involved?

The League is clearly not irrelevant given the fact that the best placed clubs ie clubs from the top 2 or 3 usually go on to win the competition.

As I said, I credit Noble for the weekend performance, but it shows how we can play as many on here thought we could. Many of the pro Noble supporters are saying he does not have the raw material to work with, a theory now that has been blown out of the water. It is still sadly at the moment a one off performance of the back of 2 results against 2 teams really struggling for form.

The Saints game I feel has put Noble back in a position to control his future at Wigan and fair play to him, but he needs to back it up now. This is not to say he has to produce a team capable of hitting that level every week, but it certainly means he can no longer produce teams that turn out the standard of performance we have seen for much of this and the last 2 seasons.

Still want him to leave, but you have to wonder if his effort over the last fews years is finaly comingh together

Surely the key word in all this debate is consistency, under Noble Wigan have proved in some games that there is a good team there capable of playing good rugby and winning, how many times have we been here - celebrating a great win only to be disappointed in the next games.

For me Noble has done many good things at the club - and some bad things BUT the one thing I would say is the major failing is getting any type of consistent performances through a season (bar a little run at the very end of the season). I think the next few games are absolutely key in determining Noble's future - put together a good run and he will stay but revert to type and I can see a new coach next season.

I would be happy if (and it is a huge if) Noble stays and Wigan perform like they did against Saints on a regular basis - will this happen? I have doubts based on the histroy of recent seasons and if the team do slip back to inconsistent ways then I would support a change of coach.

We have won 3 games on the bounce against a poor Celtic and then yes il give Noble credit were its due Wakey away and Saints are good and excellent results but his biggest test is now, back it up vs,

Wakey away,
Hull KR home
Wire away
Salford home
Celtic away
Hull KR away
Quins home
Catalan home

Lets win in the cup and then at 6 from 7 of the next games.