I do not want to enter into this debate, but what I will say is that I agree with points made by both sides For and Against.

JonH, it is a massive year for Noble but also the club as a whole. We were crying out for stability a few years ago, we still need that. So does it make sense to sack the coach? Not in my opinion, but your's and many othe posters are different.

I'm not anti-noble, all I am is pro-stability. We can't just presume the likes of Hanley and Edwards would be an instant success, Hanley has walked out of his past two jobs. who's to say he wouldn't walk out of Wigan if he got the job?

As for Edwards, as I never watch RU and thus am unaware of his coaching credentials, I cannot make a comment nor really form an opinion except that it is a risk to employ a relatively un-experienced RL coach at Wigan. (I know of his playing credentials, but that won't make him a good coach, i.e Paul Ince)

As said, I agree with points made by both sides but surely we must all agree that in order for Wigan to win a trophy, we need stability.

Interesting.

Dave O , I will post the holes in your argument tomorrow. Bit too tired atm.


There are many though.

You do realise that by your way of judging coaches, Brian Smith was/is next to useless.

Anybody who judges a coach simply by the trophies a team won is seriously misguided. On that basis all but 1 or 2 coaches would be deemed failures year in year out.

Is Brian Smith a bad coach? NO he is highly rated but what has he won? What has Neil Henry won? Nothing domestically yet he is an outstanding coach. In terms of winning something when Queensland win Origin you will see Mal Meninga as the coach but the real coach is Henry. Mal is more of a manager.

So how is it Neil Henry never wins anything domestically which by some very naive views on here makes him a failure yet he is outstanding at Origin level (the best standard of RL in the World). Likewise why is Brian Smith so in demand?

COACHES ARE CORRECTLY JUDGED ON 2 THINGS

1) Player development. Some coaches will never have the opportunity to coach a great group of players. Some will. Hence, it makes the use of silverware as a measure very flawed. Coaches asked to be judged on how they developed the playing resources available to them. How the improved those players individually/collectively. We are talking about all age levels from the young to the experienced players.

2) What they inherited in terms of a team and what they left behind. Inherited Legacy and Legacy giftd to the new incming coach.

On both measures Noble fails.

If you do not ant to accept it, please explain how in 2008 we witnessed the most vitriolic condemnation of a coach ever. IL by association ridiculed Brian Noble when he castigated the players. Those 7 deadly sins all refelected an inability of the coach to produce a Wigan RL team. YOU, the fans similarly castigated Noble when for the first time that I can remember Wigan RL fans screamed you are not fit to wear the shirt.

How in Gods name can any sane Wigan fan come here and say we made progress in 2008 when the owner rubbished the playing side of the club and the fans rubbished the playing side of the club. Many even voted with their feet and attendances declined. Week after week fans left Wigan games dismayed at the woeful standard of RL being produced.

Open your eyes, engage your brains for pity sake

Mick Potter won nothing with Catalan but he by common consent over achieved. He was hailed as a good coach. He landed a great new job. his own club did not want him to go. Brian Noble had a squad that was as good as any in SL. Certainly far better than all but 2. Yet he underachieved. His potential legacy is very poor.

As for Bradford - Peter Deacon, Brian Smith created a great legacy for future coaches. It could be argued that Carl Jennings was far more important in creating the Bradford monster than Brian Noble.

I really AM tired now and am loathe to post.

However, you make it so easy for me.


Coaches are judged on 1 thing. RESULTS.


To suggest otherwise is in the best case naiive.

People aren't saying you are a bad coach if you don't win things they are saying Noble is a good coach because he has won things. Basically facts can't back up the arguements of the anti-Noble brigade.

How can you judge him by saying the Bradford team was good before him but bad once he left. The time to judge a coach is when he is there not before or after. The way I see it is Bradford were good with Nobby in charge, he left and they are worse now someone else is in charge. That does not mean he is bad it means he is good and McNamara is bad, especially as he has made Wigan better than they were before he took over, which is according to some the only way to judge a coach.

No coaches are judged wrongly purely on results by uneducated fans, chairmen, media. Get a group of coaches / players / educted RL fans to tell you how to judge coaches properly and they will use the 2 factors that I gave you.

When you judge coaches purely on results it is wrong. It gives rise to annual sackings and instability. However, if you want to judge coaches by results then please explain why Noble is still here because if you use results as a measure then Davo O has shown That Noble is taking Wigan RL backwards. You cannot have it both ways. If you want to go the results route then you have to accept Dave O's analysis.

I look deeper than that but clearly;

IL had major issues with the playing side in 2008
The fans had major issues with the playing side in 2008
A section of Wiganers became ex fans, not attending games in 2008

You say results? Why was Brian Smith not sacked by Newcastle, why was Neil Henry not sacked by Canberra and actually chased by other clubs?

We have had stability and yet we are going backwards. So what has stability achieved at Wigan RLFC? I believe in stability personally so something must be wrong?

Come on pro Noble people

Explain how Noble has made Wigan RL better? In detail and reasoned.

You mean the ONLY people that matter in judging a coach? Wake up.

He took over a poorly balanced squad who were bottom of the league, then we finished third 3 years running with players he didn't want who were still under contract.

One other thing to note about Brian Nobles man management is that he is always positive...something you wouldn't understand.

Thank god for that.

Exactly, and I would add that it was a squad that didn't fit Nobby's "Style" of playing.

You are funny

Ask any coach is he wants to be judged by chairmen

We are talking about real evaluation / real judgement here

I thought you were tired BTW

Heaven helps us. What a ridiculous statement.

Brian Noble took over a reasonable squad of players who simply refused to play for Ian Millward. Brian Noble was then party to cheating and we did cheat, breaking the salary cap in order to avoid relegation

We have not finished third for 3 years. 3 Years is incorrect. We did not finish 3rd either in the league.

[uwith players he didn't want who were still under contract. [/u Show me a coach who gets to coach the perfect tem of his choosing? EXACTLY. He got players he wanted, we cheated for him. Look at the players he wanted!!! Withers OML Fielden Mathers OML Pryce 18 months and ? Phelps OML

look at the players he did not want Joel Tomkins!!! EXACTLY

Did you miss the bit where I suggested we finished third after being bottom, How can you seriously argue with that record?

You're passionate about the game I'll give you that, it's a shame you channel it negativity.

I am not a huge fan of the Noble style of Rugby but I do think he is a good coach with a good track record at the style of Rugby that he gets his team to play.

The whole anti Noble thing is getting tiresome now tbh. Just lets all get behind the team and if he is as bad as some people think he is then he will get found out this season.

Admit it your Mickey Higham or another player who Noble doesnt rate. It is 100% not normal to be so obsessed with Brian Noble as you are.

Oh make no mistake I am sure that NO coach "want's" to be judged by chairmen.


Sadly (for them) the chairmen are their bosses. They WILL be judged by their chairmen, like it or lump it.


Now what exactly IS your point?

You need to realise what gets you to 3rd place is winning two games in the play offs. That is all. It is no achievement.

If you are happy with that we can end the discussion here.

I am not.

I pay a lot of money and drive a lot of miles to be entertained in the regular league season. 2007 and 2008 were dire in that regard.

The idea he got to third despite it was "not his team" is ridiculous given whenever he is criticised the mantra is "oh well they played crap because they were not his team". The fact they were not his team has been trotted out time and time again whenever they have been poor.

Two games in the play-offs proves nothing.

What we need to see is a good regular season and then a good run in the play-offs. If we get that then we are going in the right direction. The sides who have won the thing in recent years have done that. It is because they have been good sides well coached. You can't IMO go into the play offs with a negative points difference expecting to win the thing.



You always do but a blind man on a bus would be able to tell you some of the performances last season were utter sh! te. Is the regular season a write off? Do we go to games to see dross performances for 20 odd rounds and if we win two games in the play-offs declare the season a success? Despite the fact we win nothing? Where did this come from?

When the game went to a GF format it was as plain on the nose on your face that any side could get knocked out of the play offs as it IS a knock-out competition. So therefore to expect to win it is like expecting to win the cup if you get what I am saying. So given this is the case I for one was not expecting to see anything like a run we had in the cup in 80's and 90's at all. Knockout football is too unpredictable for that. So I have always thought fans had to adjust to enjoying the regular season and hoping for the best in the play-offs. Because when the play-offs start what has gone before is written off.

The trouble is what has gone nefore at Wigan in 2007 and 2008 has been rubbish.

Dave

So being a good coach is about winning trophies and results?

Is Brian Smith a good coach? Neil Henry? Mick Potter? Justin Morgan?

I am a Wigan supporter who wants a successful Wigan RL who play exciting / attractive RL. That is not possible with Brian Noble.

Higham an Calderwood both came to Wigan from very successful clubs, both gained international honours in 2008. Both were wanted and signed by other SL clubs. Hardly hopeless players.

Brian Noble has always had a decent squad IMO. He's also had the best player in SL. However, even if we agree with your assumption, the job of the coach is to make those players individually/collectively better. The true measure of ANY coach. Oops Noble failed.