Haha DaveO.

To be honest i have bagged DaveO i few times in the last week regarding previous comments.

The thing is, this is just a rugby forum for fans and everyone on here has made bold claims or made statements that are easy to giggle at retrospectively.

I was a staunch supporter of Karl Pryce for example. In hindsight i was talking out of my arris because there was no way he would ever deliver what was expected of him.

Hoffman wasn't on as much as people would think. Don't forget we brought him over here for a year whilst Melbourne sorted out their salary cap problems, we were doing them a favour.

OK I'll bite.

Lauaki has missed a few games due to injury and suspension and has not been missed. Just because we are winning does not mean he is anything other than average. Coley was a better player as are Lima, Mossop and Prescott.

When we re-signed Thornley there was a discussion about him being one of only two players IL regretted having lost to the club. The other one it turned out was O'Carroll. I am with our illustrious chairman on that one and I would prefer him over Lauaki in our current squad.

Hoffman is also a better player than any of the ones we signed. Our side would be even better with Hoffman still here. As it would be if Joel were still a Wigan player (so add that to your list).

So what is your point?

completely agree with this.

O'Carroll has never had as much influence on the first team as Lauaki has had recently. Against Leeds Lauaki had to do the job that Mossop and Prescott usually do and to his credit he did just that. Just because the team doesn't fall apart when one player is missing doesn't mean that player isn't worth anything to the team.

In his first few games he was very rough around the edges and really needed to work on his discipline, his technique running the ball and his willingness to defend but he has been constantly improving with each game.

O'Carroll was a player who always had lots of heart and never took a backward step but he was also nothing special in terms of ability. His injury record was also pretty poor and as soon as he got to Hull he picked up another injury that kept him out for a few games.

Lauaki brings a bit more aggression to the pack. Having obviously worked on his attack over the last few weeks he now fights in the tackle, trying to spin out or turning his back to allow an offload, he hits the ground quickly and gets good play the ball and he also makes some good metres too.

He's not as good as Lima, Mossop or Prescott but they are real top quality prop forwards right now. Lauaki isn't quite at that level but he's still improving and he still offers a lot to the team. I can't say I've seen much from O'Carroll to suggest he'd ever really be a good forward in a top team.

I wouldnt have O'Carroll before Lauaki at all. O'Carroll for me is a very average player who is not big enough to be a top prop. Many of our younger props can do the same, if not a better job, than O'Carroll. Lauaki has a lot more size, aggression and offers something different to the team and a presence that someone like O'Carroll doesnt.

Hoffman for me wouldnt be in our starting 13 this year and isnt the sort of impact 2nd row who you would ideally have sitting on the bench, and he isnt the sort of player that would have settled for that either. He is the workhorse Hansen type player and I would only want one of those in the 17 if I wanted a balanced pack.

Joel for me was never a centre and Goulding has been 10 times the player there than Joel was last year. Again he wouldnt have been in my starting 13 this year and at best would have been on the bench. He again wouldnt have settled for that.

Is our starting 13 and our matchday 17 better than last year? Undoubtably it is. It is all very well saying players are left are better than ones that signed but that for me isnt comparing like for like and doesnt take into account our younger players progression. It also ignores the fact that in most cases the players that left, the ones who were in our starting 13 last year, were replaced by ones already at the club who have done a better job, Goulding for Tomkins, Hock for Hoffman.

I think that we should have some perspective with this thread.

How about a "Hands up if you banged on about giving Karl Pryce time and now that he's gone haven't exactly started a campaign to get him back" thread or a "Hands up if you insisted that we absolutely MUST sign Matty Smith when he got released from Saints?" thread.

Ryan Hoffman leaving was not something that particularly bothers me really & I don't have any great desire to see him return to the UK. Not that he wasnt a good player. Quite the opposite he was a fantastic player but the cap space & quota he would take up coupled with the fact we have two players in Harrison Hansen & Gareth Hock who are up to (and in Hock's case possibly surpass) Hoffman's standards.

The player that I really do wish was back in the Cherry and White's was Joel Tomkins. A truly brilliant athlete. The best raw athlete that we've produced from our academy IMO. Joel was a fantastic player & could have developed into something special at Wigan alongside his brother Sam. The season he spent at centre perhaps has seen some fans views of how good he was become a bit misguided. Certainly Darrell Goulding is doing a tremendous job at centre and we're better off with him there than Joel but Joel was never a centre. In the back row/loose forward however he was brilliant. He had a rare combination of pace/acceleration/balance with strength/power & a brilliant fend. There was a spell when Sean O'Loughlin was out for a lengthy period of time which saw Joel replace him & he was outstanding (I think he won YPOTY in that season too).

Today I had a look back at that Wembley try that he scored - a moment that will live with me forever. That was something special. I would love for him to return to league. A back row combination of Gaz Hock/Harrison Hansen/Joel Tomkins with Sean O'Loughlin at loose forward would be something else.

Hock was the direct replacement for hoffman which has turned out great as far as i am concerned. Luaki, dudson, crosby and spencer have replaced coley and o'carroll and again that has turned out pretty well. I was a bit unsure how our new recruits and young lads would bed in to this side as there was nothing 'world class' about any of the new signings but i have got too say i am pretty happy with how all of them have performed.

These are my personal favourites - guess the poster:

"Wigan should sign Ryan McGoldrick as a fullback"

(in 2009) "Wigan should given Brian Noble another year"

(with no evidence whatsoever except the fact he'd been seen at a few reserve games) "Brian Noble is the hardest working coach in Super League"

Dare I say that Joel was possibly a better player than Hock?

As you said raw pace mixed with that Tomkins agility, power and handling means for me he has more attributes than Hock.

Both are fine players tho and for me Joel was our next 13 and skipper.

Joel was immense last season, and while we have not felt the loss as much as feared due to Goulding stepping up.

Who can forget his CC try, which won us the match and his try vs the exiles, neither of which Goulding would have scored.

I too saw him as the natural replacement for SOL, but who knows he may be back?

I certainty hope so.

How is Joel doing in yawnion? This may sound rough but I would hope not so brilliantly so that he might see the grass wasnt so greener maybe.

Of course, seeing his brother(s) lift trophys may help that cause as well.

Joel was far from being "immense" last season.

He was decent in an unfamiliar position and scored a couple of fantastic try's, but in no way he was "immense"

The thing people need to be careful of is getting carried away, this year and its signings are going better than anybody could imagine, this season we will lose Carmont, Tommy, Lima and in all likelihood Finch (and Roberts), without any question that presents a huge amount of problems for the management team and they really need to get our signings right, otherwise, we will quickly drop back into the back, we are losing 4 of the best players in SL this time.

Definitely. We don't need Joel back. Our back 3 is perfect as it is and Farrell/Hughes are good replacements.

scored on his debut and hardly played since...not even making the bench most of the time.
he must be either
1. rubbing his hands about getting paid for doing nothing
2. frustrated

my monies on 2

I thought Joel had pretty much accepted that he would spend what was left of the season playing for the second string side and playing a few games in the LV Cup. Wasn't it stated that he wanted to learn the game and his role first rather than being thrown right in like other converts have been?

so its option 1 ?

What people tend to forget when discussing topics like this is that, just because a player is a better [uplayer[/u they don't necessarily make the team a better [uteam[/u. Hoffman is, without doubt, an excellent player but the team, especially the pack, are functioning at close to perfection at them moment. How much better could it get? To put Hoffman into the team you would have to take someone else out and, in my opinion, that could very well result in a nett loss. Who knows?

Excellent point, I was only thinking about Hoffman's leaving yesterday morning. No doubting Hoffmans talent, and there is equally no doubting the strength of this team. In 1966 Jack Charlton asked Alf Ramsey why he, Jack Charlton, was in the team. Ramsey said words to the effect of "i play to a system, and that does not mean i necessarily play the best players". Great psychology. Its a team game, very talented individuals help of course, but one man can't take on a team. IL should take great credit for the management team he has put together, thats where our strength lies at the moment.

Would you want him back though? The problem being the player we lost would be different to the player he will become playing union. Massive risk taking players back from Union IMO - At best his skill set, athletisism, and fitness will stagnate, if not go backwards, to the point where he is no longer the player he was at wigan.

If he did come back he may never be the player he was, or it could take him anything up to 2 years to get back to where he was! Look at Lee Smith/ Karl Pryce/ Chev Walker etc for perfect examples!

This was part of the sadness for me of him going - Not only losing a W.C player we had, but also knowing that he will be such a terrible waste of talent playing a game where he is likely to only see the ball 3 times a game!

Joel would compliment this current side as a second rower and cover for centre. He's a fantastic tackler and athlete, however he was prone to massive brain farts such as the pass he made over the try line in CC semi against Stains and the constant penalties conceded acting as "big Brother" to Sam. Some of Wigans current success is down to discipline and not giving away cheap yards. Wane has Hock counting to 10 nowadays (except for Stains matches) so maybe he could iron out these problems that exist with Joel (even Sam has his moments).
It would be interesting if IL was asked today who he regrets losing- if Joels name would be mentioned?
That try at wembley and the home match against Wakey (when Roberts bust his knee) where he ran the full length without breaking sweat are reasons he would fit in this side. A massive counter puncher with top rate speed. Similar to Lee Gilmore and look at the length of his career. These athletes last a long time and always deliver