I think we do have many average players, but Leeds and Saints have so many average players as well, but they look good because they are in a great team.

Once we get rid of 5 players maybe more at the end of the year and get some better players in we will be better, but we still dont have the class that Leeds and St Helens have. Having average players is not the problem because all teams have them but they look great in good teams.

I dont agree that Hanson and Lockers are average, they are quality second rowers but Lockers is not a leader or a loose forward. Hanson can be good in attack but only when he runs onto the ball.

Bailey is very average but will do this season at centre for me as he is quality in defence.

stop talking crap tomkins tackeld his heart out like the rest of the team end of leeds was red hot in 1 st half , barrets gone stop living in the past there s not many in super league who could be classed in barrets league

well said

Who for?

Hock - on more than one occasion last season: Wigan struggling for possession, numerous drop-outs and repeat sets of 6 to defend.... Wigan finally get the ball and get in an attacking position well into the game, Wigan are behind but the game is far from over, Hock runs to dummy half after the 2nd tackle, no pressure, knocks on... scrum? only if he can keep his gob shut and not give a penalty away ... One of the most over-rated players ever to wear a Wigan shirt, seems stronger this year but still doesnt have 2 brain cells to rub together and will continue to lose his composure when it matters and lose us games... Against Leeds his mistakes may have been due to ball stealing, but why Hock and nobody else? Probably because Leeds watch the video's and know he has the ball security of a 9 year old... most players would learn from their mistakes and hold the ball a bit tighter, unfortunately you can't educate pork. And why would he need to work hard to improve when he can make a glaring error and still get picked the following week?

My mistake, I thought he had played in the 2008 WC. He's played for Country Origin though, so clearly in the "above average" crowd for the NRL.

Say what you like about Sinfield, I dont think there are many Leeds fan who would get get rid of him. Especially not in a swap for Hock.

I think this entire thread proves my point.

Look at our record this season, look at who we've lost to. That's the only stat you need to focus on.

Head needs to be removed from sand. Why do you think our record isn't that great? Not the management, the players. Week in week out people come on here and 'big up' players who are just average and would easily slot into Wakey or Huddersfield.

Yes Hock is our best attacking backrower, but some of his mistakes are bad. For that reason he isn't as good as people make out.
I stand by my comments. I knew many would misinterpret my comments regarding Sam Tomkins. I never said he wasn't good or wouldn't be great. But people on here bang on about how good he was against Leeds, when in truth he didn't do much.

I don't expect him to just yet he's only young. But lets not say the kids great when he simply wasn't.

I now I expect an argument of 'who actually said he was great' Which is the sort of pedantic reply many on here reply with missing the entire point.

I know the coaching staff isn't the issue, Noble basically has done what all fans want.

I agree with some of your posts i really do but how can the coaching staff not be 2 blame also? What is your opinion of our coaching staff if you analyse it in the same way you did the first team? What has Pendlebury or Vievers ever achieved in the game?

On Friday not only were we out classed by the players but we were truly out coached as well- The move five and hold defence which invites teams to attack us? Feka and Hock starting meaning we brought Coley and Hansen on for impact? Noble can get a reaction from the team cause we always see it at HT why tho is it never from the start? Why does out team not support the ball carrier like they did against Bradford?

Why in the first few games did we not have a recognised replacement hooker or HB on the pitch? Why is last season runner up to the YP player of the year award and our top forward try scorer last season struggling to start games? Is Lockers really playing that well that he can't be pushed up to the 2nd row?

I reckon the issue is that people rate players on their best games. No Wigan player is overrated based on the performances shown in the play-offs last year and against bradford this. It is just consistently performing to the standards we CAN acheive that is the issue.

There are plenty of other threads about Noble and I don't want to turn this into another one, but surely the issue with the current team is that the whole is not equal to the sum of its potential parts.

That is a very good point. Often fans do judge Wigan players on their best performance rather than an overall season.

Noble has made changes to his starting squad recognising problem areas and making changes. No longer do we see Goulding or Mathers starting. But what we do see is the likes of Ainscough and S Tomkins in our team.

The coaching squad are looking for answers and pushing to make the best team possible for Wigan.

Sam Tomkins will find it more difficult to play behind a pack isn't as up for it as the opposition, Leeds had key players missing and still ran over our pack, this shouldn't happen.
So many times last season we saw lack-luster performances result in defeat, by teams who we think aren't as good as us, why do we think that? Cos we overrate our players over an average complete season.

People always talk about Stu Fielden's performance at the back end of last season, but what about the rest of the time he's had at Wigan? Hardly been the great prop he once was, judge off a season, or two, or a career at Wigan, don't just focus on their highlight reel.

We've lost to the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 7th in the league.

At this point yes.

And what teams did we lost to last season? So is it acceptable to lose to Cas, Wakey and Hull?

Are you one of the fans who were screaming for Nobles blood over the same loses?

Glad Nobby didn't use that speech after the recent losses.

Lets not go OTT on negatives please. Lets look at some positives for once--

As a back row quartet of Hock, Lockers, Hansen and Tomkins i still think we have the strongest group as a whole in SL. Yes individuals such as Ali Lauititi, JJB would get in there but as a group of four which is what you need i really don't think there is a better set in SL.

It’s far from being all doom and gloom it really is-

Add a HB who can control the game and do the right things at the right times e.g 40/20’s or kicks to get you repeat sets of 6,
Add a good prop who can put in the hard yards when needed and put us on the front foot
And lastly add a centre that is not only defensively sound but will open up space for the pace wingers we have

This team would be transformed with the three signings above and go from what we are now to title contenders.

Exactly.

I'm looking forward for the younger players to step up, hopefully they'll have a winning attitude from the moment the first ball is kicked to the end of the season.

Don't wanna see losses to any team, especially teams that aren't realistically challenging for the SL, and I don't want a Wigan team that only wakes up when they're 18 or 20 points down leaving too much to do.

Always difficult to truly challenge for the SL when you need to play so many teams in the play offs.

But we don't have the 3 signings you speak of.

JJB, Ali and Sinfield is a better back row. They all did more that our men in total. Joel and Lockers got through a lot of hard work and tackles but were out played in attack. Hock was patchy.

Seinfield had a good game at 13, often does, provides good defensive work with the rest of the pack and links up very well with the halves.

Pendlebury was coach of the year.

You have seriously lost the plot. Didn't you say Pat Richards is the best player in Super League?!

Hock and Wilkin are different types of backrowers. Wilkin is more consistent and has more composure.

Hock is much more difficult to deal with running at the line. I rate both.

I think you missed the point of what I was trying to make. We have a good base that if slightly added to can go onto bigger and better things.

Plenty of people on here are losing their heads and are advocating getting rid of half the team some want to get rid of Hock even tho he’s been better than most 2nd rows this season? Same goes for Hansen one of the best defensive 2nd rows In the league who is a consummate professional and hard worker? Why get rid of them? What would it solve?

How about instead we look at Saints and Leeds and think what do they have which all the other teams don't? Continuity from season to season- Players such as Sinfield, JJB, Gardner & Smith have all been rubbished or called 'average' during some point In their career but their clubs have kept faith in them and it’s more than been repaid. JJB is the perfect example of this, how many people said he was rubbish two seasons ago and was just a work horse type player and nothing more? Instead of letting him go for being ‘average’ Leeds saw his potential and worked at unleashing it why can’t we do this? Why do we think getting rid of a player that isn’t quite there with parts of their game is the right way forward?

Lets for once not take the squad apart but lets just ADD to it!! This squad is young enough and talented enough and is almost with the addition of one or two players ready for a title challenge.

Oh I totally agree.

I don't want to lose what we have. I rate Hock and I think defensively Hansen is really strong. That was never my point.

Wigan can push on and I agree with the positions you've stated that they are the areas in need of improvement.

Would be interesting to see now if other Wigan fans would still take an aging prop i.e Wiki.

Think I would.