funny how a couple of months ago I was on here bemoaning cap mismanagement, recruitment and coaching structures and styles and I got jumped on like a seagull on an icecream! couple of bad losses and you all agree now. well i'm glad it took that for you to realise what I've been saying since 2017!

wane shouldn't go now, he needs to fix this before the end of his final season with us or lose credibility and potentially his future options should they not yet be decided. will he do so? I still think we'll be in the mix come the seasons' end. but that says more about the opposition than us.

next, Wigan should not drop Williams either - they should sell him! I honestly don't think any coach at wigan will get what we saw potential in 2 or 3 years ago. I've heard a lot about him away from these forums such as very bad habits with money; he's happy to pi$$ it up the wall whichever way he does but doesn't earn it on the pitch. yesterday he didn't just look inneffective, he looked careless, lethargic and unconcerned. he didn't even get himself into positions for the 5th tackle on numerous occasions. don't blame the forwards as they have been decent enough this year barring the last two games yet he still hasn't shone above anyone else. don't come at me with stats either, they don't reflect impact and performance and it won't change my opinion and by the looks of things a lot of others' opinions now. why was he a better player when smith was at his side? because smith did the right things and allowed Williams to shine? nope. because he wasn't on megabucks back then thinking he can do what he pleases now.

Tomkins (joel) must be sold too. he is chewing up way too much cap space for his performances (effort aside on occasion). another example of wane bringing his mates back. to be honest I like him, he is versatile but not worth what he is on (i'd imagine he is on a decent wedge of course).

finally, the fact that bateman played like 10 men yesterday says to me he is off at the end of the season; he put his blood into that game and the emotion showed at full time. was that a way of identifying that was his last chance of CC silverware with wigan? to me, that's a yes. so why have wigan stalled so much on him? again mismanagement. lettign the sam and Ollie saga's run on way too long did it for me. wigan should have thrown the whole cap at him to keep him here even if it mean losing the likes of isa and Ollie. and why didn't we have enough cap space to do this after MM and FPN left? that was even before we knew ollie wanted off or a better contract, before we knew sam was off, so there was space or should have been. mismanagement is the only answer. again, bad move by wigan for me regards bateman. i'd be very surprised to hear he is staying now. with lockers probably retiring at the end of this season he should have been an absolute must to tie down.

now i've ranted, what about Radford as our next coach?! he looked gutted at full time. ha!!

When you say don’t come at me with stats, is that because they are factual and take any sense of opinion out of it. That’s like saying we’re the best supported club in the world of sport, oh but don’t come at me with attendance figures. Is Williams playing well this season? No I don’t really think he is. Does he have a seven who allows him to play the game we know he has? No he doesn’t. Yet Powell the least effective seven I have ever seen, gets away free cause he put in a good stint when Micky was injured. And as for what Williams spends his money on you have got to be joking. He’s a young lad earning a lot of money, of course he’s going to buy things! So long as it’s not a load of coke, it’s absolutely none of our business and has no impact on his ability as a player.

George Williams has been below par for most of the year and yesterday he stunk the place out but its pretty hard to make anything happen when the off the ball players are not dragging defenders around and 90% of the attacking threat is coming through you. Warrington watched him like a hawk knowing that nobody else in the team had the ability to create anything that could cause them defensive problems. Put a decent 7 next to him next year and Hardaker running out the back and then judge him.

Id also like see us switch to half backs that are free to roam the full width of the field. why are all teams so insistent on having split half backs these days? The only positive i can see is that they are in the right area of the field when transitioning from attack to defence. Same with the centres watching old games from the 90's, the amount of times Connolly would move to the opposite side of the field to finish off a move was notable.

Next year. Sam Powell to 9, Tommy to retire. An organising 7 with a great kicking game. Joel to be sacked, Bateman to loose forward ( needs to get in the game more), a decent right centre. Lockers to Prop (40 mins a game max). Sack Joel, try to move Tautai on. Get a prop like Fifita or Ikicahifo (spel) in.

Hardaker
Davies
NEW
Gildart
Burgess
Williams
NEW 7
Flower
Powell
SOL
Isa
Farrell
Bateman

Escare/ganson
NEW BIG prop
Clubb
Hamlin/Naverette

Out

Wane
Sam
Joel
Sutton
Forsyth
Manfredi ( sadly can’t hold onto 4 wingers. Keep if Burgess wants the NRL again)
Tautai
Sarge
Leaulai

In

A coach who is a coach to the players rather than best mate
Hardaker
Centre
7 who can get us round the field and kick goals ( what’s deacon doing these days)
Big Prop (not converted back rower)
A project signing in the centres.

What about players contracts? What are you going to do about them?

I’m puzzled as to how Wane let this happen. If you remember back to when he was appointed he ordered players to put size ON. We were huge back then and bullied teams around the park, hurt them and then our fast flowing rugby took over.

I still think we missed a beat by not going in for David Fifita/Liam Watts when they were available. They would have added some much needed grunt to the front row.

It mustn’t only be me who is astounded at the decline of the club and how hypocritical it sounds given we’re sitting pretty in SL. I’ve said it for a while in that the club have been and actively are papering over the deep rooted cracks. This policy of resigning players was utterly ridiculous from its conception, none have come back any better than what they were when they left. If anything they’re worse!

A huge off season of spending is required IMHO as well as paying off some players to leave. It’s a serious investment required and I’m not too sure IL will be willing to bankroll it.

People don't think about realities and technicalities when they get all emotional like this.

All of which would count on the cap.

There's ways and means to allow players to leave and take up other offers while still under contract and we've done that in the last year, but simply paying someone off isn't going to help matter in terms of cap management

Ah my apologies, I wasn’t aware that was the case. Sounds a little daft to me but that’s a debate for another day.

In that case then we’d have to try and find a willing buyer. Given the current SL financial climate we’ll do very well to find one.

Was very surprised with Williams, if I'm honest. I really rate him. He's raw but was nothing like he was 2 years ago.

Playing behind a well-beaten pack doesn't help. That game was lost up front, and lost early. Too many missed tackles, too many offloads allowed, too many quick PTBs allowed, too many penalties given away as a consequence. We put in some decent kicks early on, pinned them on their own line, then released the pressure every time.

It was extremely difficult as a fan watching Warrington's off-loading game totally kill us, with Wigan just falling for it again and again.

One thing we are really lacking at present is someone on the field with vision, someone who can see where the problems are and rectify them on the hoof.

Lockers had a bad day at the office last Saturday, but I'm not sure he's any use to us only playing 10 minutes each half anyway. I've said this in the past and been jumped on, opponents arguing that he's a talisman who still wins us matches. The problem is that there was always going to be a point where that didn't happen, and unfortunately it's happened in what was possiby the most important game of the year.

That's why it's a big issue for me that we get no leadership or direction from our halves, or from Tommy L. When SL is off the field, there seems to be no one on the field with any nous or clout. Sam has been leading from the back to an extent, but he's now blotted his copybook again, and is leaving anyway.

I don't disagree with you about our forwards by the way. They were totally hammered by Wire, and ought to be ashamed to call themselves Wigan forwards.

Completely agree with that. Bateman has shown signs of leadership, certainly from the front anyway but his future is up in the air. I do worry who will be the leader when SOL retires, I can’t really think of a suitable replacement candidate off the top of my head.

The fact that the ball kept ending up with Faz on the lasy tackle was nothing short of disgraceful, and revealed a degree of headless chicken disorganisation that I could scarcely believe in a professional team. No doubt Warrington fans will consider this a churlish comment, but it's a fact: they played well but Wigan made it very, very easy for them.

Question,, is this not a normal tactic for wigan? its something we were complaining about last year under smith when we were crap, however its something that has carried on this year, with livett and hughes being passed the ball from both brown and roberts for a dribble through.

It may be, given that we haven't got any halfbacks who can kick.

I've just said it on another topic....like FMC said, reading the post on here is like reading the posts on Wire last year.

We called everything and everyone...but the bottom line was the pack....like Wigan it just wasn't/isn't good enough.

I was very surprised IL didn't replace the lost of a prop early season. Why?...is he becoming tight again like he did at London?

I didn't say anything about him buying things.

stats are all well and good if you want to glamorise something but they do not show a full picture. i'm pretty sure Sarges' stats were better than Gildarts in the first few games this year and you can take from that what you wish.

I think Powell is trying his best and is doing a decent job, Squad standard at best yes, but it is much more than I can say for Williams who looks to have been in a different world for about a year. again, don't get on at me about our pack, when Williams is on the ball he is a one trick pony with no desire (or at least to the eye) to try anything different - that is not his coach stifling his play. he has had ample opportunity to show us his off the cuff play that we all raved about early in his career but i'm sad to say that is not apparent in his game anymore hence why I feel there may be other influences. he looks to surrender tackles too easily instead of trying something, is constantly out of position (considering everyone rants about Wane keeping him too structured) and although he shows bursts of speed and provides the odd break does little more for me at present.

normally i'd settle for that but not when he is a marquee player and the club is already up to limit.

My own opinion on the non replacement is someone did the sums wrong and wigan simply don’t have the cash to sign anyone at present

You lost me when you said “I've heard a lot about him away from these forums such as very bad habits with money; he's happy to pi$$ it up the wall whichever way he does but doesn't earn it on the pitch”. I really really don’t get how this is in any way relevant and just emphasises you have something against the lad. I feel he’s become a lot of people’s scapegoat because he’s a young lad who’s doing very well for himself - so of course we should knock him.

Have to agree to disagree on stats. I’m a fair believer that they just give a factual representation of what someone has done, you just can’t argue with them. Stats take any bias or personal feeling toward an individual or team and chuck it out the window.

Powell is bringing absolutely nothing for me and that’s not his fault, I just don’t think he’s a super league standard 7. We need a seven who can take control so that Williams can use his running game, simple.

it has everything to do with my concerns... think about it, is name was on every young lads shirt, playing like a true potential wigan legend and was setting the English game on fire. signs a marque contract, form quickly drops and hasn't recovered since. all while the REPORTs I've read (which have already been brought up and discussed on here might I add) state he has been seen getting rather shirty doing something with money a lot of us don't have the luxury of doing. i'm not saying I believe those rumours at all, but it would be telling and it makes sense to me knowing what that kind of off the field behaviour can do to you mentally. so yes i'm concerned that this may be one of the reasons for his lack of form. he isn't my scapegoat, I've been on about him for about a year now. if you are on marque money you should be delivering. whether tha stats say it or not, if you have watched Williams of late and honestly think he is making the effort he should be then you are very easily pleased. again, had he still been on a more youth-orientated contract I probably wouldn't be too worried. in fact i'm actually concerned for him and the club. if the club can't or won't help him then we need to think whether his marquee status is worthwhile.

again with the stats... that's like saying the tory government are only in because the majority voted for them. its more likely they are in because of the majority of people that didn't vote at all.

All I can say about George Williams is that I've seen him and his mates in my local a few times, but he has always appeared friendly and was only drinking soft drinks.

But yeah, his form has gone backwards and I can't see how Shaun Wane is to blame for that.

"again with the stats... that's like saying the tory government are only in because the majority voted for them. its more likely they are in because of the majority of people that didn't vote at all."

This is a very poor argument against stats. How do you know the majority of people who didn't vote wouldn't also have voted Tory? The fact is, the Tories are in because the majority of people who voted (according to our system) voted Tory. Any other statistic or 'what if' is completely irrelevant.

Statistics tell the full story if used in the correct way. Unfortunately they very often aren't and people attempt 'spin by omission'. I think this is what you're alluding to here.

As to George, his stats do tell the story. However they don't take into account expectation, much as Sam's tenure in the NRL is often coloured by the expectation his enormous wage put on him. It all comes down to what you expect from a marquee player as you say. On that score, I think it fair to expect more than we're currently getting.

that is entirely my point, the stats have shown what they are able to show, i.e. what can be measured, but they do not show you the entire equation. they can show you his metres gained, how many tries he has to his name but they do not show you many other elements such as desire, enthusiasm, fitness, quick-thinking, decisive plays etc.

I actually agree with you all here it does sound like i'm griping on about him a little too much but I must once again point out, considering the mess wigan is in as we all now know, a player of marquee status needs to be doing more. my concern is that his off the field habits may be having a detrimental effect - that is not a criticism, i'm genuinely wondering if that is partially to blame fo his apparent lack of form.

I totally get where you're coming from WB. I just have this thing about people dismissing stats because sometimes they are used incorrectly. It's like saying words can be used to lie therefore all words must be lies or pictures can be doctored therefore all pictures cannot be real. I often ask people on here to justify an opinion by backing it up with something concrete and whenever they can't they invariably use some variant of the 'stats can be used to prove anything' line when, in actuality, they can't unless you're using them incorrectly. Just put it down to a bee in my bonnet mate!

As for George I tend to agree with you, especially in relation to his marquee status. It puts an enormous expectation on a player, especially a young one, and it's not a foregone conclusion that every personality type is able to handle it. George seems like a quiet lad and maybe this has come too early for him. He wasn't the finished article anyway and perhaps needed to hone his skills a little more 'under the radar' so to speak. I wouldn't agree that he isn't trying though. On occasion it's seemed to me that perhaps he's trying too hard and it's stifling any freedom in his game.