Yourself and AJ defended Noble on the basis of his trophy cabinet. Even now you mention winning things.

Many people who climb to the top of tree are extremely lucky rather than talented.

You are talking as though Noble inherited Elliots squad and just sat back and did nothing.

I would like a Bulls fan to come on here and list the players Noble signed for Bradford and the starting line up in Elliots last year and the starting line up in Nobles last full season. Noble signed and coached his own players,Elliots team was long gone when Bradford hit there peak.

I did not defend him solely on winning things. I said bad coaches dont win things year on year.

You compare Nobles time at Bradford to climbing a tree. Noble was not lucky was he? He did not sit back and let Elliots team win things. He built a very successful team that at its peak looked nothing like the team Elliot left him with.

I may be wrong but in a year or so McNamarra has virtually changed much of the Bulls line up around. I think Bradford will be very good in 2009 and will play a different style of RL to the past. So from what he was given to where he will take them that could Mcnamarra a very impressive coach.

Some coaches are player dependent to a much greater extent than others. As an example, 2 centres like Iro / Newlove were far more important to Ian Millward being successful than anything to do with his coaching.

Great coaches adapt to the players they hve and cange their tactics to get the maximum out of those players. I do not think Millward nor Noble fit that category.

But the system, ethos and style of play was not, and that is the crucial thing. Noble simply identified players who would fill the void left by the players leaving the club.

This is a fact Noble discussed at length every potential signing with Carl Jennings to see if they could be conditioned physically to suit the system in place. Now a coach may discuss a player with the conditioner, but would he give them the final say on if he should sign them or not? I doubt it.

Thankfully time as it always does caught up with this method players became quicker and a physical match for the Bulls and the legacy of this continues today.

I expect this year to be career defineing for both Noble and McNammra, both have had time to stamp there authority on there respective teams and make them there own.

McNammara as a player was a pretty skillfull forward and clever tactician, i think we may well see this transmit to his Bradford team in 09 and they could be a real force.

Your not listening are you?

I have never stated Brian Noble is some kind of coaching guru as you seem to suggest.

Ive have merely pointed out that his track record blows the theory out of the water that he is a bad coach. Do you honestly think a bad coach could stay at one club for around 8 years however long he was at the Bulls and repeatedly win things even though the squad had completely changed from the start of his reign to the end?

The facts are Noble had to rebuild the squad at Bradford and sign new players he did not inherit Elliots team and sit back and do nothing.

He was compliant in Caisley's policy of not investing in youth development but rather spending money on established players. Not a gret CV for a Wigan coach is it?

So you say he was not a coching guru but he won lots of trophies. Which makes him lucky rather than good does it not?

I said on ere on sat that sam should have played on sun.

What I fail to see is, how would playing Sam Tomkins be rushing him into the side? He's been on the fringes for two years now, he's what, 20? How old were McGuire and Burrows when they got into the Leeds side and established themselves? How old was Andy Farrell? How old was Shaun Edwards? The list could go on! Fact is... if you're good enough, you're old enough.

I bet if we put down on paper players younger than him who have made thier sl debut you would get a very good team a new topic mite get stated i think.

I'm inclined to agree. I've been stuck in the middle of when I feel the time is right for him to be playing SL, but after that shower of sh*te on Sunday, how bad could it actually be playing him? IMO he's head and shoulders above LuLu (who IMO should be utilized as a second hooker).

If Noble thinks that Tomkins is the "next big thing", like many other people, not just Wigan fans do, he should be playing regularly, very regularly in SL. Can't help but get the feeling that if Noble doesn't give him his chance, he'll take it elsewhere.

McGuire was dropped from Leeds Challenge Cup final side v Bradford or Hull.

Both Burrow and McGuire were brought along slowly at Leeds, which is something I think the majority of Wigan fans want with Sam.

I certainly remember them both playing academy rugby well after they had made their senior Leeds debuts.

I very much doubt Sam will get a look in at Hull. The same players will have to put Humpty Dumpty back together again in relation to what they want to achieve..... blah blah blah...

You cannot be serious if you think Noble won all the trophys with Bradford through luck. A couple of trophys yes maybe but not to keep a team at the top of a sport for many years no.

Why is it that all these coaches who come to Wigan as winners seemingly end up leaving with their ability questioned? Im not having it Millward won all those things with Saints through luck either.

When Lindsay was here he was blamed for poor performances and coaches failing to deliver. People thought when IL came in we would finally be able to kick on and challenge yet it seems since the new management has been in theres been endless rumours of player unrest.

I think the problems are much deeper than Nobles coaching ability. Coaches however good or bad they are should not have to teach pro RL players how to catch a ball and hold onto it. That is basic RL and players who are frequently dropping the ball are not switched on or concentrating for one reason or another.

could someone please tell me what tim smith has done so badly wrong last year he showed some nice touches, this year hes had a full pre season judge him later in the year not one game in for god sake. i suppose after barretts first ever game for wigan he had against warrington he should of been dropped, coz he did nothin that night

I didn't go to the game but from what people have said who were there, all Wakey's tries came down his side and when Lockers was put there, defensively that side suddenly became OK(ish).

It's not Smiths fault for poor defense on his side, but from what I've been hearing (which could be wrong so if it is please correct me) he had a bad game.

they scored one try off a kick, that had nothin to do with smith, more roberts not being match fit. the other try there was 5 or 6 missed tackles one was by smith so i suppose thats why they scored had nothing to do with roberts missing him twice then phelps then im not 100 percent sure but i think lockers missed a tackle

Don't quote me on this, but i'm sure that they said a few months back that mcilorum would miss the start of SL due to injury, automatically limiting us to one hooker.
So surely one obvious solution would be sam tomkins on bench, bring him on at 7 and switch tommy to hooker with riddell off.
Realistically noble isn't going to try tomkins, so maybe have phelps as the other hooker, we need a second choice there.
Phelps's best game last year was when he played hooker, he was everywhere in defence, and took us forward creating quite a lot. That is until he got knocked out.
Noble needs a change and fast, choose, tomkins, phelps or tommy not your suicidal lockers to 6, something that may improve on that dismal effort yesterday or we will be annihilated against Hull and any other side we face.

Faie enough, like I said I weren't there so I can't criticise. However, I don't think the problem at half-back is Smith, I think it's LeuLaui.

Tim Smith will get a load of stick this year because hes filling Barretts boots. The same people that have blasted O'Loughlin for years because hes filling Farrells boots.

In reality Smith should not be playing 6. Hes a scrum half not a stand off. Its already been said Noble was hell bent on wanting Greg Bird this year and he will be proven correct.

After 1 SL game nothin can be said about smith or lulu, lets be honest in to freindlys we scored over 60 points so theres no problem at half backs

I know, Leigh were shocking!

I think we all know that Noble wont make any changes on friday.

Noble, despite his record seems very very stubborn. No other coach in SL would select Phelps, Coley or Mathers after yesterdays fiasco. I bet they all play in Hull

I think you are stretching it Rogues. Both came into the first team far younger than Sam. Sinfield even younger.

The Wigan young players must have a genetic defect that make them different from every other SL club's youngsters.