Seen this with your own eyes or is it yet more hearsay?

The thing that I found interesting is just how lethargic we look when Smith is on the field when compared to Tomkins on Satuday.

I think given his defensive frailties Smith is in the last chance saloon and if he continues to show some of the major flaws he has so far this season against the Bulls he may well, and rightfully so, find himself in the reserves, which i do not think would do him much harm and may be what he needs.

I agree with the rest though Tomkins off the bench again for me, and a big reaction from Smith needed.

Absolutely spot on.

This is how it should be for at least the next 6 games

although I think Tim smith has been very very poor this season I have sympathy for him in the fact he to is a young lad and has been handed the responsibility of taking over from Trent which was huge boots to fill

I think he is seriously lacking in confidence and looks scared to try anything other than the basics and with a pack in front of him not doing their job its going to be hard for him to make an impact. he is a class player and anyone who questions that should watch some of the games from 2005 where he won the dally m award some of his touches that season where amazing

but its 2009 and fans support for smith is disappearing by the game especially as everyone wants to see Tomkins given a chance (me being one) but I think smith can be a massive player for Wigan and with confidence we will see him play some exciting rugby.

In bold is the key point. He is a shadow of the player he was and has been awful this season, easily the worst player.

Sick of hearing we need to drop this player, whe need to drop that player. We need some consistency in the team especilly in key roles. The team on Saturday played ok, so lets leave it how it is. The team will never improve if personnel in the key roles keeps changing!!

He was easily our MOM against Hull.

Spot on, leave Sam on the bench, give him time to develop, we dont want him to become another Kevin Brown or Luke Robinson, he has more talent than that, and as such deserves our patience, but i doubt he will get it.

Why because of 2 kicks to the corner? I wouldnt say he easily was at all. I agree he was much better than in his other 3 games but that isnt saying much.

Coley
Mathers
Pryce (has his reasons, but nevertheless)

Tim Smith was MoM the other week and but for his passes, we would have been without a lot of the tries that we have managed to score so far this year.

OK, he has a weakness in his defence and hardly ever attacks the line himself, but when you can pass a ball as quickly and accurately as he does, you don't need to.

Work on that defence and Tim Smith will shine.

Even as he is now, I would have him in my top 3 picks, along with Tommy and Pat and build the rest of the team-sheet from there.

Talking about permanently replacing him with Sam is quite simply foolish.

If Sam outplays him in the bradford match then why not? we have to play players on form

I have to agree.

ST didn't look out of place. He does not need "protecting and nurturing".

He was the beter performing 6 and should retain his place.

That said, Riddell didn't do enough to merit a starting position. TL to 9 and Smith to 7.

spot on mate even tho tim has let us down upto now , he can play he did nt win Rookie of the Year award after leading the NRL in try assists for nothing yes we all want sam to play but there s nothing wrong doing what we did last week there is no need to burn sam out before we ve even started i d go with same team less coley i could same a couple of more but that would nt happen lets hope these ozzy s gel soon an get better in the better weather i live in the heart of st.helens unlucky for me lol all my freinds an family are stains fans its like me against the world an they all tell me jamie lyon was rubbish for most of the season b4 he started being a super star

Bit harsh on Pryce there, only seen highlights but he seemed to go ok against Cas.

no he was poor v cas didnt look fully fit thou

Are you joking?

I'd put - Mathers, Fielden, Coley, Phelps, Bailey WAY ahead of him.

Shaun Edwards was 17 in his first season with Wigan and made 30 appearances, only 6 of which were from the bench. Anyone think he suffered from being thrust into the limelight too soon?

There are many other examples. A certain Mr Murphy was a St Helens regular at 18, playing 38 games that season. Murphy, and Roger Millward later on, were 18 when they were picked for GB. Edwards and Millward both captained their teams at 21.

It's a question of ability and maturity, not age, surely?

Where does this 'give him time to develop' bleat come from in the case of Sam Tomkins? It is being parroted by all and sundry on here and by some within the club. Sam will be 20 in a couple of weeks and has been at Wigan for several seasons already.

Was it Phil Clarke in commentary on Saturday who replied to a suggestion that Tomkins was inexperienced by saying he had probably been playing the game since he was four...?

Sounds good to me.

If in a few matches time ST is looking like he needs a rest, rest him then if necessary but BN has to get away from this policy of not playing the young lads.

If you're good enough, you're old enough. That used to be the Wigan way, with the likes of Faz, Edwards, Jason Robinson, Radders etc debuting at ridiculously young ages compared with the recent (and much inferior) squad, but is yet another part of what made Wigan great that seems to have been lost in recent years.

Mathers and Phelps only played 1 game. Coley I would agree with though.

And they were shocking!!!!

Maybe he is injured - I remember Gene Miles being a big disappointment at first but when he regained his fitness he was absolutely incredible, so you never know, but Smith's been with us for a while now and it isn't looking good for him...

Smith is quality, you can see that, but is taking a little while to get into it. Defence is ropey that's for sure! Smith, Tommy, Piggy and Lockers have played 3-4 times together so it'll take a while to (hopefully) see the benefits.

very harsh on pryce he did look good in spells again st cas very strong running with the ball alls thats up with pryce is match fitness,



as for smith i ve just took this of the net =

In 2005, he won the prestigious Dally M Rookie of the Year award after leading the NRL in try assists. He also received much acclaim from Parramatta legend Peter Sterling, who "handed over" the Eels #7 jersey in an episode of The NRL Footy Show in the middle of 2005. Tim has been touted as the most naturally skilled halfback in the NRL with the ability to land precsion kicks and passes with incredible accuracy. With 40 try assists in his debut season Smith entered the NRL scene with a bang, he was labeled as the next 'Joey' and 'Sterlo'.

Bit harsh on Tim, Wigan need stability now and we're slowly getting there.

Personally I thought Sam looked good enough to start and play a full 80 without any issue, and for me this could be the key.
Tim allowed the chance to be a true 7 playing with Sam at 6 could improve Tim. He could focus and passing and organising while Sam takes care of being a good number 6 getting SL experience playing with the first team.
Remember, when Tim was top notch over in Oz he was a true 7 playing along side a 6.

Getting Sam and Tim playing together regularly is what we need, we all know they're both very good players, just need the right setting.

So this for me leaves Tommy at 9, who for me, has been the best number 9 we have this season. He was very good at 9 in the WC, if he is spelled playing week in week out at 9 he'll only get better.
My issue Riddell, whether he is carrying a knock or just unfit he is not firing on all cylinders. Maybe time to get over an injury or to get match fit in the reserves, the issue is he isn't doing it. So, who is spell with Tommy is the issue for me-Riddell or McClorum, if Sam or Ainscough would have started as slow as Riddell they would have been dropped by now, is there a different rule for big name imports?

My team for next week:

1 Richards (Best FB we have)
2 Roberts (Speedy winger)
3 Bailey (Solid in defense, I thought he did well against Quins, better than Goulding or Phelps)
4 Carmont (Best C we have)
5 Ainscough (Quick step Robinson esq winger)
6 Tomkins (Ready to start, to play with TS)
7 Smith (Out and out 7, let him play that why to get the best from him)
8 Fielden (Why not)
9 Tommy (Best 9 we have)
10 O Carroll (Better than Coley, young lad who is getting better with each game)
11 Hansen (Tackle machine)
12 Lockers (Tackle machine)
13 Tomkins (Best Loose we have)
----------------
14 Feka (Impact! interchange with O Carroll)
15 Hock (Impact! Runs like a prop, interchange with Fielden for me. Hock, Lockers and Hansen on the field at one time is solid enough)
16 Riddell/McClorum (Take your pick)
17 Pryce (Could play across the backs or in the pack for size if needed. Offers something else for injuries to the backs and for impact. give the lad a go!)