Everybody deserves a fair crack of the whip this season under a new regime, but beyond that with so many players off contract, it will force players who perhaps are thought to be under performing to buck up there ideas.

Hopefully we'll see under this new regime a willingness to drop players and change the team from week to week, because of both poor performances from individuals as well as changing the team to suit are own needs for defeating different opponents, rather than going with the same team each week come rain or shine.

I'm trying to think of players who were in the first team when Noble arrived that have considerably improved under his coaching and guidance, and I honestly can't think of one player who has. Perhaps under this new regime we'll see current first team players add to there game's elements that have been missing to take them and the team to that next level, the team's performance will only rise and improve when individuals performance's rise and improve.

I think this is true. I think its a clean slate for the lot of them and that includes two who I think consistently under-performed, Riddle and Roberts.

Should they have done better than the less experienced players? Yes in my opinion but it's water under the bridge now. The same should apply to Goulding etc.

I don't think there should be any player under any more pressure to deliver than any other player including those two along with Hansen, J Tomkins and Goulding. They all have to respond to the new regime, fit in with it and train and play as instructed.

If come the end of next season having all started with a clean slate some players are not delivering or responding to the new regime then we can debate then if they need to go but the key point is no one should be under any more pressure then anyone else to perform.

Put it this way, if they didn't perform under Noble and don't perform under MM then it's most likely the player that isn't good enough not the coaching. I am optimistic enough to believe the vast majority of them will perform better under MM.

Dave

I think it's totally correct that it should and will be a clean slate for everybody. Thats really exciting isn't it because it means that all the teams people are picking could be way wrong come the start of the season.

Who's to say at the start of the year Pryce, Ainscough, Mossop etc won't be first team regulars. If they(and others) get their heads down and impress the new man in pre season there is no reason why he won't pick them as starters. He has no loyalty to anybody in this squad which should ensure everybody is fully commited going into the season.

It's a really exciting time at the moment.

Absolutely and yes, the players i mentioned earlier arent on their own but remember (former manager) Mr Noble was not a major fan of Hansen hence the reason H was constantly unhappy at being on the bench every week, and he admittedly got a break of fortune when Gaz Hock got banned and mibbe Joel did too but i repeat.. his place has still got to be won in the side as has Joel who always flatters to decieve for me and i have watched him since his debut (no matter how many fans he has on these boards) as have Darryl and Feka too..

On the Mossop front id say very possibly yes, he's the same, remember he was shipped out to Huddersfield on loan for a reason being that was either Noble wasnt a fan of him and thought there was better to come through or he needed first team regularity! whatever we believe and i did think he was superb in our last 8 to 10 games by the way.
Its going to be interesting how Mr Mcguire dictates as to who his mainstays are going to be but id be willing to bet a shilling that 2 or atleast 1 of the aforementioned players will be getting the toe.
Remember, weve all have our opinions and thats mine

Bob on......

Having just watched the Deacs video I will be interested in the squad numbers for next season....

Very!

It's going to be a good indication of how things are shaping up. Maybe the delay in the new shirts coming out is to give McGuire as much time as he needs before christmas with the squad to decide who should get which numbers.

People are going to want the names and numbers on the backs of their shirts so they have to be released before they go on sale.

From a neutral :

Phelps
Roberts
Gleeson
Carmont
Richards
S. Tomkins
Leuluai

Coley
Riddell
Prescott
J. Tomkins
Bailey / Hansen
O'Loughlin

McIlorum
Hansen / Mossop
Fielden
Palea'aesina

Mossop to get the number 11 shirt for me. He needs first team football week in week out, he has sooo much potential. We've got a gem there

I'd go with

Phelps
Roberts
Gleeson
Carmont
Richards
S. Tomkins
Leuluai
Coley
Riddell
Prescott
J. Tomkins
Hansen
O'Loughlin

Fielden
Feka
McIlorum
Bailey/Mossop

Phelps (needs to sure up his defence if he wants to keep his place(attack brilliant

Roberts - hopefully he'll be more settled this year, looks like a dangerous player when he wants to be, hopes he gets more involved this season

Glees - Class act, hopefully will be even better with a full Wigan Preseason until his belt (would like to see him given the ball with more space)

Carmont - Another class act, hopefully hes had time to sort them nagging injuries out (hope he plays the required amount of games for a further contract)

Pat (k) - Just keep kicking the goals and scoring the tries



Sam - Hope people are too expectant of him, doubt hes gunna be MOS (although I'd love it

) but hes just gotta keep working on his game and performing, would like to see him take more responibility in the kicking game.

Tommy - 7/9/7/9/7/9 Doesnt matter where hes playing hes a game breaker, give him half a game and hes stepped through. Hope he builds on his partnership with young sam and improves his long kicking game.

Coley - Keep up the good work from last year.

Riddell -Must improve on last year tbh, must lead us around the park better

Prescott -Hugely impressed with the rate of improvement in prescott last year when given his chance to start, hope it continues.

Hansen - Very underrated, gets through shed loads of work in defence, needs to put his hand up to take the ball up more though.

Bailey - Again underated IMO, think him and lockers will be the key to our defence structure next season when he regains fitness. Got a got positional sence in defence and can throw a good pass in attack, also dont have a problem with him fillin in at centre tbh

Lockers (c) - Awesome

Macca - Needs to make better decisions at times but a very good talent, seems to play with alot of passion

Feka - Improve his fitness and we know how good he can be.

Fielden - If Wane can find the old passion of Fielden thats inside him(like his performaces at the back end of 08 when he was really fighting for a world cup place), we could be looking at a good prop forward again (not fielden of old though)

Mossop - Outstanding talent IMO it was obviously sam who got everybody talking, but Mossop I thought was outstanding when given the chance last year, Runs in strong in attack and is burtal in defence, superleague look out

Joel, Ainscough, Deacon, Goulding, Pyrce, O'carrol, Farrell, Davies

Alot of depth in this squad.

1) Phelps
2) Ainscough
3) Gleeson
4) Carmont
5) Richards
6) S Tomkins
7) Deacon


Fielden
9) Leuluai
10) Prescott
11) J Tomkins
12) Hansen
13) O'Loughlin (c)

14) McIllorum
15) Coley
16) Feka
17) Mossop

1icon_cool.gif Roberts
19) Bailey
20) Riddell
21) Goulding
22) Pryce
23) O'Carroll

It's tough because I don't know the type of rugby McGuire plays and what players will suit it. But if i had to pick a best 13 it would be:

[u1.Phelps-[/uSolid, just hope he improves his catching and defence over pre-season and he could be great.
[u2.Roberts-[/u Yes, he has his silly moments, but he could do exactly the same as Pat did, Pat wasn't great first year but look at him now. Hope Amos goes same way.
[u3.Gleeson-[/u impressed last year, hope he carries on. Wouldn't mind him getting more of the ball in attack.
[u4.Carmont-[/u simply, he's an experienced player that helps out the younger ones. Plus the fact he's solid and finds a way to the tryline is a bonus.
[u5.Richards-[/u Pat is Pat, strong in every department, if he improves his goal kicking and puts few more over, we could move up the table.
[u6.Tomkins-[/u Like Pat, another important player to us, hope he carries on from last year.
[u7.Deacon-[/u Glad we signed him, although Tommy is a decent half back, at times seemed lacking in creativity, whereas Deacon,with Sam, can take us to the next level. Quality player when he wants to play.
[u8.Prescott-[/u Last year, was a close second to Sam for young player of year. Proved that he can hack it at the top level and looks a bright future if we keep hold of the likes of him and Mossop.
[u9.Leuluai-[/u If we put Tommy here, he is a totally different player to the one playing at 7. Has shown he can play here in the World Cup and 4 Nations this year, hopefully he can do this for us.
[u10.Coley-[/u Mr reliable from last year, and shown he can lead from the front. Deserved to stayy and hope he can continue next year.
[u11.Mossop-[/u Young but proved at the the tail end of last year (Saints away in the league), that he is a quality of a player. Strong in both attack and defence and even gets the approval of my grandad, which not many forwards do.
[u12.Hansen-[/u It was between him and Joel Tomkins for this place and I think he tips it because he gives us more in both attack and defence, this shown when Harrison was top tackler two years ago. Would rotate him and Tomkins throughout next year.
[u13.O'Loughlin-[/u Captain and proved why last year with too many brilliant performances, and if he would have stayed fit throughout last year, would have run close to MOS. Keep leading us from the front Skipper!

[uSubs:[/u
[uFeka-[/u Massive Impact Player.
[uFielden-[/u Hopefully becomes a new player next year with a new coach.
[uMcIllorum-[/u Shown last year what a great hooker he can be, with the help of Tommy, could become a great player.
[uBailey-[/u Put Bailey in because of 3 things- experience, ability and his leadership he can bring. Great in defence and was missed in the play offs and the rest of the semi-final against Wire. Can play in the forwards or in centre and this could be useful for us.

God, that was too long, pretty useless post but wanted my opinion across

Agree with most of this selection, but would not have coley as the water boy, imo he plyed ok last season in parts to ensure he got his extension the went back to his normal self,

Baliey was worth the extension so long as he keeps the pen count down!!

imo O Carrol will never be what we need him to be .

Bailey will be in the first 13.

Phelps,
Roberts, Gleeson, Carmont, Richards,
S Tomkins, Leuluai,
Fielden, Riddell, Coley,
Hansen, Bailey,
O'Loughlin.

Prescott, Feka, J Tomkins, Deacon,
Goulding, Pryce, O'Carroll, McIlorum,
Mossop, Ainscough, Farrell, Mellor.

I don't think the first 13 will be changed around much but the 14-25 will be the interesting bit. Deacon will be used from the bench I'm sure during the early part of the season interchanging with Sam & Tommy.
Also under the SC which covers the highest paid 25 players we have 23 with first team rugby, just two who have not.
That seems a very deep and experienced squad for next year.

Some really tough choices to make for next season, personally:

1. Phelps
2. Robers
3. Gleeson
4. Carmont
5. Richards
6. S Tomkins
7. Deacon
8. Fielden
9. Riddell
10. Prescott
11. Hansen
12. Bailey
13. O'Loughlin

14. Leuluai
15. Coley
16. J. Tomkins
17. Feka

I'd also completely eliminate the 20 minute by the clock interchanges, and interchange when needed.

The biggest difficulty for me is trying to find game time for: McIlorum, Goulding, Pryce, Ainscough, Mossop, O'Carroll as they all need it. Players like Farrell, Thornley etc I think the odd SL game next season is sufficient but the aforementioned all I feel need more extensive game time and are far too developed already for the U20's and i'm not sure how many overage pllayers are allowed anyway.

Pryce is 23 (24 in July), O'Carroll is 22 (23 in June), Ainscough is 20, Goulding is 21 (22 in March), McIlorum is 21 (22 in January), Mossop is 20 (21 in January) they're all at the ages where they need some significant game time.

Pat Richards was poor playing under Millward at centre in a team falling apart. When Noble arrived and played him on the wing his form was good enough to make it hard for Dallas to get back in the side. Like the rest of the team there was nothing wrong with Richards form by the end of the 2006 season.

Roberts did not have to put up with Millward or playing out of position so I really wish people would stop using Richards mythical poor first season as a pointer to Roberts getting better or as an excuse for Roberts in 2009. If he gets better it will be because he applies himself better and responds to the new coaching set up, which is true for several players IMO.

Dave

I don't really see the problems people have with him, he always appears generally solid to me, and the best finisher we have had for a few years when he can be ar$ed.

You've just named 2 problems there:

1. 'He appears generally solid' - Is this good enough for an overseas player? Wasn't Colbon 'solid'? Surely the idea of bringing in a player from Australia/New Zealand is to play in a position that we can't fill in with someone from our Reserve side or there is no British alternative (all of the right quality). So, with this in mind, I expect overseas players to be one of the best players in the team and one of the best players, in their position, in Super League, all to compensate taking up a Quota spot, usually a high wage and for keeping out a British alternative.

2. 'When he can be ar$ed'. Harsh comment IMO, but a silly one to make when you earlier say you can't see the problem.

Seriously I don't know what people were expecting last season. You could've put Jesus Christ on our right wing and he wouldn't have shined. He started off quiet and picked up as he settled in and our team got a bit more likely to take the ball to the right. His metres per carry, tackle busts, clean breaks, tackles, try assists, and even trys were all pretty respectable (go compare them with Pat's who had the advantage of far more ball - 167 more carries) if you don't believe it.

I've got £5 ready to put on Roberts for top try scorer next season

Roberts did well last season.

I don't care what you know who is upset about because it's unfair to use this or that scenario to praise Roberts, he doesn't mind using stats or scenarios to meet his agenda when it suits!

Top line?

Anyone want a bet that Roberts is selected by Maguire & Wane on the Vast Majority of occasions (If Not Injured obviously!) next season?



?

If they do select him then how will they explain away Roberts inclusion then? Last season it was only because Noble wouldn't pick kids

(Ludicrous statement I know but some people still believe it as they are brainwashed by certain posters constant whining about it!) rather than what to many believe is the real reason for his inclusion, and I Know this may sound radical, He's the best Right Winger we have!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO, a couple of players have been over criticised for the sole purpose of using them as a Proverbial stick to beat Noble with by a few supporters who Think they know better then the coach at the time!

If Maguire does very well you can bet most of this will go away, if he does average or struggles the same old arguments will come up!

Correct!

His defensive positioning for short kicks near the line, kick return downfield and his overall defensive positioning was very good for the vast majority of the time, far better than what we have had for some years.

I will say, just to prove that i'm not like certain posters who only use points to try and prove their point in an argument, that on certain individual occasions (Probably 2 or 3 over the year) he has, through his defensive style of coming up quick to pick his man when needed, has allowed his winger to get outside him.

To counter that, I believe he saved us on many,many more times through his positioning and defensive efforts.

On attack I agree that he could "Look" a bit more interested however i'm with SEB (And not just by use of stats but with my own eyes) and can see that when he does take the ball up from AHB he makes good yards, he is deceptively strong in the tackle and nearly always gets on the front foot for a PTB and I don't remember him bombing too many chances last season?

Then again if you want to look at ANY player and criticise to try and prove YOUR point you can do.

FWIW I don't have [ithat much[/i of a problem with Amos Roberts. He had a slow start to the season, but so did the vast majority of the team. I would like to see him strike up a better partnership and develop a greater understanding with Martin Gleeson than he did last season. He can obviously finish tries well, he is the first winger we have had since Brett Dallas to back himself and dive in the corner. My only concern with Amos Roberts is the length of his contract. Four years is a hefty contract to be handing out to an overseas player (or any player for that matter) and I just fear that with the quota coming down and with players like Ainscough, Charnley coming through, he might prove to be a costly signing - both on the salary cap and the impact he will have on keeping young lads out the side. Plus I would imagine he will lose some of his speed as he gets older. So for those reasons (through no fault of his own) I see him as a bad signing.

Still not enough for what people are saying about him imo. I didn't mean he didn't have problems, all players do, I meant I didn't see why people hated him so much. I believe he wasn't trying as hard as he could have in attack because we have seen what he can do with tight spaces on occasion, but not always, and a big sign of whether you want the ball or not is how far away from his centre he liked to stand. Just because you are a winger does mean you have to hug the touchline most of the time. And as for why he was brought in over Colbon, I don't know, I don't make the decisions, and I said he was generally solid in the sense that he does not make mistakes that often, but when he does make mistakes - again like everyone does - it is far less often than most other players on our team, it is just picked up upon. I see being "solid" as a big bonus in our quite young squad, sometimes you need the solid players, even if they are from overseas, and it is the fact that he has been solid that I would still rate him above Ainscough, but I would like him to stick a bit closer to his centre.

Man that went in circles, but I hope I at least clarified what I meant there?