Thanks, appreciated. I know we don't always see eye to eye.

"The Move" still works. The only problem is (a) it's our only move and (b) we don't have the players to execute it effectively anymore (Finch/Green, Sam, Carmont, Pat, Goulding).

Smith is a good player but he thrives off having a top class halfback alongside him. I thought he kicked really well throughout last night with very little praise.

With Williams, the problem is clear as day - confidence. He is trying too hard, forcing passes and scuffing grubber kicks. Every time he has the ball he tries to 'do something'. He needs some thoughtful coaching and revert back to his natural game.

Agree with the comments RE Sarge. The lad works his backside off every game. He takes up so many dead ball carries - throwing himself into forwards and getting smashed. He has shown his class at the highest level. Stop working him like a forward and we might see more of his class in attack and he may have a bit more energy to defend!

For next season our backline is fine. Tomkins Charnley Sarginson Gelling and Manfredi. Our backs are excellent. Williams needs to be spelled with Hampshire now. I wont get on Williams' back because he has been thrown in the deep end and is playing behind a powderpuff pack. After the last few weeks though and getting smashed and punched by Sims I'd rest him and give Hampshire a chance in his preferred position.

We need a backup hooker to Mcilorum for next season. Not convinced Powell or Logan Tomkins have a great impact when they come on. They give everything granted, but they aren't good enough. Brad Dwyer made a huge difference for Warrington when he came on. In the short term I'm not sure what we can do. We will have to go with Powell.

Our pack needs to find their backbone and they need to find it quick. We missed Clubb and Bateman. Two aggressive players. Flower has gone well since his return and Sutton has acquitted himself well for his age. Mossop, Tautai and Crosby need a rollocking and need to sort their game out quick. Patrick has just been bloody awful. For next season we need some huge experienced pack leaders. I'd have loved an Ashton Sims or a Cuthbertson in our side. In the short term there's not much we can do I fear. Clubb and Bateman come straight back into the side. Lockers too at 13 with Sutton benched with Patrick dropped. Tautai, Mossop and Crosby are in last chance saloon. Tautai to keep hold of the ball at all times - no more errors! And Crosby and Mossop to discover their again!

No half-back at Wigan will look good at the moment - the pack is being bullied and walked all over, I lost count of how many drives the backs were taking up because the forwards (props esp) were just not performing - and at times looked downright lazy. Even when they took the ball up - nothing. The Warrington forwards were making yards for fun.

Until the pack (front row in particular) either man up or get replaced debate about half backs is pointless.

Christ we've got problems but Hughes being five time the player Sarginson is certainly isn't one! He's an average second row at best.

I actually thought Sarge was pretty good last night. It's not the three quarters fault they're doing the props work on top of their own.

Hughes knows what centre play is about but Sarge doesn't?!!

I'm as annoyed as the next man but I seem to have landed on another planet! Hughes has showed zero ability when it comes to traditional centre player and whilst Sarge has rough edges there's a classy wingers centre in there somewhere.

End of discussion really.

Summed up to perfection.

All really good points and I agree with them all apart from Brough.

I'd personally like to see Sam move back to 6 and for us to look for another 1. I really want to see what Sam can do in the halves. I want him in there directing play and causing the kind of genuine threat at 6 we haven't seen since Trent.

After that good solid FB's aren't that hard to come by in the NRL. If Wakey go down we could even look at Locke. Sarge has also shown some promise there in the past.

Love your idea about TT in the 2nd row. Whilst he's undersized for a prop he's a good size for the backrow. Moving him there and bringing in another prop just makes sense as it means one less addition/disruption.

Like you said we don't need wholesale changes. The one big change is getting rid of Wane.

I agree with a lot of your post, but I disagree here. MMc should be doing 80 minutes. Who is Saints back up to Roby? Who is Leeds to Aiton? how often do you see Cameron Smith taken off? IMO back up hookers are not required. Lockers or Bateman could spell MMc if he needs a short 10 minute break but no longer - not worth having a hooker on the bench.

Tautai can't play anywhere whilst he's making the errors that he is.

It was a shame last night to see him make so many because unlike his more experienced colleagues in the prop department at least he runs on to a ball with some purpose.

Spot on. He should be playing 80 mins.

It's so obvious to see that when MM leaves the field we go to pot. The most simple and easiest way to stop that happening would be to stop taking him off.

We played well the last time MM played as the only 9 in the squad.

We've not bothered since.

I am not saying Smith is untouchable but it would seem he is by the way Wane doesnt change him and some fans are very quick to point the finger at Williams.

I would like Smith be moved on and lets go with two out of Hampshire / Williams / Powell and place these young lads in the correct positions.

Williams is not a number 9
Hampshire is not a number 1
Powell is not a number 9

For me its all down to confidence in the position he's been asked to play in. He must know he's struggling and he's trying to hard.

It's a similar situation across the side:

Joel- I've seen a couple of idiots suggest getting rid of him due to his form. He's been playing centre for 8 weeks FFS. He's never a centre in a million years but, due to Wane he's had to play there. Wane must have know Gildhart wasn't ready so why have him as backup? Planning like that has seen one of the leagues best 2nd rows go to pot.

Rocky - I said earlier in the week he's been set up for a fall by Wane. He's been forced into the FB role and it's not worked out. Where's his run at 6? Why isn't the same kind of blind loyalty shown to Smith and Williams shown to him? You'd at least want to give a gut with his potential a fair shot right?

Williams - had game time and had the backing but is struggling to play an unnatural style. He's not Blake Green but that's the role he's been forced into. He's a better version of Smith imo and should have taken his place in the side.

Powell - again loads of unwarranted stick. One week he's at 6, next he's at 9 then he's dropped for 3/4 weeks. All the while Williams continues to struggle but keeps getting backed to the hilt.

All this rests on the shoulders of Wane. He's destroyed the ethos built by Madge.

I'm as baffled by the use of MM as everyone else. All I can think is either he's injured and carrying a knock - or he's doing so much defence in the middle when he's on that the coaches think they have to spell him. Having said that, his first stint was very short last night.

I watched them but what he is doing now isn't good enough. Mossop was good before he went to Oz, isn't doing it now and its the same with Sarge.



I don't think you can lay the blame for his mistakes because he takes the ball in too much. When he is attacking very often its head down and no pass. Defensively he has left his winger with an impossible task quite often also never mind showing poor tackling.

What him taking the ball in will do is guarantee his name on the team sheet as Wane will see his 110% effort and regardless of either of our opinions on him as a player or what mistakes he may make, that will do for Wane.



Having to hope Clubb is back soon is a dismal indictment of the rest of them.

I agree at the moment it isn't good enough, but he is a good enough player, as he has proved. That is dependent on the props doing their jobs well enough to lessen the need for him to take every second carry. He is knackered and that leads to poor decision making, surely you must see that?

If Wane likes a trier then he's not the only one is he? Give me a team full of triers and I will make something.

Yes waiting for Clubb is an indictment of the rest, but he is our best prop - no question, though as I said I could name at least a dozen better in Super League.

Agree with the general consensus here; for me, it's not primarily *about* our centres, or even our halves. Until we get some proper forwards, we're on a hiding to nothing.

Just on halves, a lot of people are saying, we must have an experienced half, Brough or similar. Yet in the NRL, plenty of teams are going with young half-backs these days: Moses and Brooks at the Tigers, Austin and Williams at the Raiders, Moses Mbye is keeping Origin half Hodkinson out the side at the Bulldogs... Not to mention Shaun Johnson at the Warriors. Difference is, of course, these guys are all playing behind proper packs.

I just hope we haven't thrown all our cash at Tomkins because going to the Warriors has set him back about 3 years...
Hopefully there's some cash left in the kitty to boost the forward dept, because Mossop, Patrick and Crosby can all do one imo. Still can't believe we resigned Mossop - he was poor and an injury liability before he left - I can count the number of blinding games he's had in his whole career on one hand...

I'd hope Tomkins moves to halfback when he returns. I wouldn't underestimate just how much difference he'll make to your attack next year.

Its weird how quickly views change. When you beat Leeds at MM wasn't your pack all over ours? Wouldn't be surprised to see the same again this week.

I don't think so. Just cos we don't see him scoring length of the field tries like he did in SL only proves that NRL defences are tougher, not that he's a worse player.










Me too!

Time for change?
Time for improvement, especially our away form.

You can have change without improvement but you can't have improvement without change.

I've been talking about that magic game a lot over the last few weeks and how people thought after the game that we'd played well but I disagreed. I thought the effort was pretty good but we we're awful with the ball in Leeds half and we had to rely on individual brilliance and large chunks of luck to get us over the line.

One thing I would say the game told us is just how massive John Bateman is for us. He is the only forward who looks like he wants to follow Micky Mac and take it to the opposition. He'll be a big positive on Thursday as will Clubb. Will they be enough to carry the bags of wind that Mossop, Flower, Crosby and Patrick are? Doubtful!!

Wigan's best player at the Magic weekend was Ash Handley!