Jukesy, the posts are getting longer and longer. There's no way I can respond to all your post. On the strawman argument though, I apologised in case I was being condescending. There was no need as you actually don't understand a strawman argument. None of the ones you posted are examples. Telling you that I think something isn't putting words in your mouth. So when I say *I* can't believe something it isn't the same as telling you *you* don't believe it. You understand? (I won't do the same for the rest of your examples but if you apply the same criteria you'll be able to work it out for yourself).

As for me commenting on a thread I entitled 'Hastings' solely about Hastings, again I'll leave you to work out the logic for that one yourself. Had I entitled it "the match" or "the loss" and only mentioned Hastings, then maybe you'd have a point. Again, I fully realise there were other factors in the loss, all of which have been fully discussed in other threads. This was specifically regarding my opinion that giving the opposition too much respect is not a good way to go into a match and, again in my opinion, is both a contributory factor in the loss and not acceptable. I also think making the entire match about your love in with your former club is disrespectful. Did Sarginson do the same? It was his first game against Wigan too but I didn't see the gushing 'I love Wigan' things that we saw from Hastings. Similarly I didn't see them from Bibby. You can disagree all you want but I would have liked to have seen Hastings take a similar approach to Sarginson. Go out, put in your best performance and leave any praise for AFTER the match.

It's just my opinion. Nothing will change it and my hope is the next time we meet Salford we'll see Jackson Hastings put them to the sword in the way we all know he's capable of doing.

What was your opinion on the try that Hastings scored?

I didnt say they were "straw man arguments", and didnt use them as examples.
I gave other examples of where other things could affect the outcome of a game far more than someone playing against a former club and saying nice words about them.

Your stance seems to be that Hastings respect for his former club means one or more of the following.

A/he didnt want to win as much
B/by speaking about them in nice ways it affected his performance
C/it affected everyone else's performance
Plus others

Top line IMO is, Rubbish
People can show respect and still want to win 100% for those 80mins
If other team mates didnt try as hard because they didnt like someone saying a nice thing about an opposition team then theyd better take a long hard look at themselves and not Jackson Hastings.
There are dozens of other issues FAR MORE IMPORTANT than if Hastings still respects or saysbnothings about Salford, his former coach and their fans.

And if you want to raise a thread about this and ignore the other factors then thats up to you. Not seen one person agree with it and trust me, I've run teams and coached and managed teams, and I understand how much the little 1%s matter.
But I also know theres a lot more 1%s out there (or bigger %s) creating bigger issues atm than this one.
Fix them first, as they were far more relevant to Fridays defeat than this.

Mate, there's plenty agree with it. Because a few people on here don't, doesn't mean diddly squat.

You say ignore this 1 per because there are others that need fixing. Can I assume that, even after all your squabbling, you do in fact agree that this is a 1 per then? In which case why are you even arguing? I agree there's other things to fix up. That doesn't mean that any that YOU deem less worthy, shouldn't even be mentioned. I think it's more important than you clearly do. Why? Maybe I attach more significance to attitude than you do. That's fine. People see things differently. I'm sure Sean Wane had a different approach towards attitude than, say, Adrian Lam has. Each to their own.

Yes, I do think it had all 3 effects you mention above. Did it stop him having the same ruthless approach to the game he would have had against someone other than Salford? Yes I do. Do I think his approach affected his performance? Yes I do. The statistics posted elsewhere support this view. Do I think the fact that our main playmaker not being at his best permeated the rest of the team? Yes I do. Whether it should or not is another argument.

It's fine that you, as you put it, think it's rubbish. My opinion is that you thinking a player's approach and attitude going into a game doesn't have an effect on his performance is rubbish too. I would argue that no professional sports coach or player would agree with you. In fact, how many times have you heard professionals use the line "we showed them too much respect" as an explanation as to why they lost? Games are won and lost in the top 3 inches as the saying goes. This game was as good an example as any I've ever seen.

IMO of course.

If that is true, why were we 12 points up at the break and why did Hastings score a try himself? He would have caught and passed, took the tackle or dropped the ball rather than beat two men and drag two over to score would he not?

The actual fact is, in the 2nd half our forwards got battered and we made some dumb mistakes.

Hanks missed kick, Powell's crap grubber, Smith's missed tackle and countless dumb penalties all had f*ck all to do with the fact Hastings didn't celebrate and loves Salford as a club

That's a few times now you have spoke sense, it won't catch on with this thread.

Mate, I'm not saying he didn't play at all! I'm saying it affected his performance. You could equally ask why he only took roughly half the carries he would normally and why he had next to no impact for the majority of the game...so why aren't you? I see you were quick to jump on the stats on the other thread when you thought they supported your view but have been awfully quiet once it was pointed out that they actually supported the opposite view.

Try to take an overall view of the game and then argue you thought he was at his best. If you can't (which I'm assuming would be the case) ask yourself why? Do you think his mindset going into the game might have had an impact? If not why not? I know that you've thought this of other players from your previous posts so (if not) why not in this case?

Because our pack got its handed to it in the second half thats why. Most half backs struggle under those circumstances because its the forwards taking the carries or the likes of Marshall as you desperately try and get away from your own line. He was one of our best players first half when our pack was on top.

The bus parking comment is probably a reference to the pack not being as good 2nd half.

I would expect that should Sam score on Sunday or whenever the game happens that he won't "celebrate" so will itt be his fault if Catalans lose?

You're telling me and Jukesays what to do and say so I'll throw one back at you. Admit you are talking the biggest pile of bull there is and move on.

In this and other posts your making a direct correlation Between Hastings and his respect for Salford and the Loss whilst ignoring every other aspect - If one of those other things mentioned i.e. Harry Smiths missed tackle, Powells poor kick (Which if you look closely he only attempted as Hastings was pointing and told him to kick as there would have been a walking day Try for him or French had come off then I guarantee you wouldn't have posted this thread - Why didn't you make this point pre-game?
I assume (Like you do all the time) it's because we lost - and his respect for Salford AFTER the game which you have said is fine - Peed you off.

No I don't think his respect for Salford Pre - Match - affected his 80min performance 1 bit (Not 1% either).
You then go on and tell me what my position on players approach and attitude is and telling me that I don't think it has an effect his performance blah blah blah
For a start you have no idea what my approach to attitude etc, is
At what point have I said that players attitude going into games doesn't affect performance? You seem very good at assuming what I am thinking
I am a Big Shaun Wane fan & believe our professionalism has dropped in a number of ways - and have read/studied many other coaches in many other sports and I can tell you I know how much attitude/preparation etc. etc. is important.
However
What I am saying is that IMO His respect for Salford had absolutely ZERO/ZILCH or whichever way you want to put it to do with the result or his performance.
For example he had a similar game at Cas - Was that down to his approach or attitude to the game?
Or could it be that because we got steam rollered up front and we had not platform to play from he struggled to influence the game as much as he could or should?
I could go into lots of other things but won't

I am disagreeing with 1 point - Hastings Respect for Salford had any impact on his performance or game
Your putting words in my mouth on a number of issues and then using that to discredit my stance (Isn't that a Strawman argument?)

You used lots of words like "Disgraceful" etc. in the original post - I think you couldn't be further wider off the mark
I'll try & leave it at that

Exactly, penalty count was 11 - 5 against Wigan according to League Weekly. We were in total control of that game 1st half and shouldn't have let it slip. That was due to the FACTS you stated above and nothing to do with Hastings lack of celebrations. If you watch it again Hastings was one of the first to congratulate Powell on his try.strange that eh?

Didn't Hastings have a dig with a Salford player in the final minutes as well?

Pie eyed you Fuz.

That was class. Hastings professionally scored a fantastic try...,but with the class he has chose not to run around the pitch like Sean Long or LMS.
Instead he excepted a gesture from Jake Bibby who totally got it....
Or perhaps you want your players running around like LMS...now that I would find embarrassing

Jackson Hastings really is the very least of our problems. In fact, he;s not a problem at all, and I hope he has a long Wigan career.

I've got a feeling that he will be with us for just the one season as there are a lot of Australian clubs who are apparently going to be in need of a halfback for next season,this would leave us needing a new stand off to partner Harry Smith from next season,we might be wise to start looking now maybe over at Hull and Jake Connor as he wants to play stand off and Hull have that covered with Sneyd and Albert Kelly

Connor isn’t a half though,he may think he is but to me,(and way better commentators on the game than myself) say the same

I agree. He’s a good centre but an average half. We need better

And he's a gobshoite

We will have to take whoever is available hopefully its not going to be Woods

I don’t mind that though to be honest. I like a player that has a bit of needle behind him!

I like a player who stays on the pitch, though.

I mentioned Connor in the off season but I watched a couple of pre season pieces on Hull, on things like Rugby AM and when his teammates talk about him, you sense there’s a real feeling of dislike towards him from some of them. I think you saw that towards the back end of last season when he had a run in with a few of them during a game, with Minichello in particular losing his rag with him.

/

Why, in your opinion?

Hastings may be a good player, but I would not rely on any loyalty from him about staying at the club in the long term!

Any better offer, especially from the NRL or Union and he will be off like a rocket.

Let’s be fair Ruddy, he came over to SL with the intention of rebuilding his career and going back to the NRL. And to be perfectly honest good on him, I hope it works out.

His performances have been superb so far and you can tell by his actions on and off the pitch he is totally dedicated to Wigan (for whatever 2020 has left of it anyway). If he chooses to move on then that’s his prerogative and good luck to him.

Equally if Bevan French’s performances keep up he’ll be off back to the NRL, is he disloyal too?

I think it's considerably less likely that NRL clubs would want French. No-one moved for him when he was at Parra. Hastings, otoh, clearly had ability but also had a bad rep as a trouble-maker. He has knuckled down in England and sorted that out, so Aussie clubs may well renew interest.