I think we might keep him given Flower's lengthy ban that he'll be getting.

We've got a young squad but a hell of a good one. Forget all that 'team of thugs' garbage, every team has their idiots. For the most part we play damn good rugby and we'll be up there next year.
I'm more gutted about the manner of our Challenge cup exit than our defeat last night to be honest. We played well below par in the CC quarter final, couldn't really ask for anymore from the 12 last night.
Let's have some positivity, look at the personnel we've lost over the last 2 seasons, and look where we are

We have to look forward but there's nothing to feel down about from last night from a performance point of view. One guy cost us big time and even with 12 I thought we could well of got home with a bit more luck.

In terms of what we can change I don't think there needs to be a great deal. Bowen has bombed in all our big games this year which is either a strange coincidence or he's got an issue with his temperament on the big stage. We have a couple of young lads who may push him but in fairness Bowen has been very good most weeks. We naturally need to start looking at replacing him anyway given his age. I also have to agree with people questioning Pettybourne, he's not been good enough IMO and is a liability. I would imagine Tautai will put him under huge pressure.

The young lads will be a year older so we just need to tick over and keep doing what we do. With a full team last night we'd be sat here as champions IMO so there's no need to start an investigation in to our problems as there aren't any. We're the best side in the league on our day and we'll be fine.

I doubt we will see as many changes next year as we can't afford to lose matches in the opening 23 rounds to the 'lower' teams in the league. Personally I would be looking at having enough points on the board after 23 games to be able to rest players in the 7 weeks before the semi finals when it will be tough game after tough game. I'd look at our main 17 being:

Bowen (needs to step up at the start and end of the season though. Both not good enough for me)
Charnley
Gelling
Thornley
Burgess
Powell/New Signing
Smith
Crosby
McIlorum
Clubb
Tomkins
Farrell
O'Loughlin

Bateman
Tautai (hopefully the impact we've been looking for)
Williams
Sutton (should get his chance again until Flower returns unless we keep Taylor)

I think there's a fair bit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater being advocated. No need at all for major changes. I'd go:

1 Bowen
2 Charnley
3 Sarginson
4 Gelling
5 Burgess
6 Hampshire (it won't happen but he's too good to leave out IMO)
7 Smith
8 Taylor (if he's still here)
9 McIlorum
10 Flower (Clubb during his ban)
11 Tomkins
12 Farrell
13 O'Loughlin

14 Clubb (Pettybourne or Crosby when Flower is banned)
15 Powell/Williams (depending on form)
16 Tautai/Pettybourne/Crosby depending on form
17 Bateman

I think it's very important to sort things out with Taylor. We look a lot stronger with him in the pack and we'll need him when Flower is banned

It was never "meant" to be that at all. It only looked like it was going to be transitional because of what happened to the squad. It looked like it was going to be hard to retain either trophy simply because the squad was weaker and the club didn't look like they has seen it coming. Going from double winners to a side viewed by its own fans as transitional was just bad management.



With all the injuries during the season we did very well to get there. The play off games were the best performances of the lot. Without Flowers indiscretion I think we would have won and so would have done so with a weaker side than the year before.



Next season we face sides in Wire and Saints who have addressed the at least some if not all of the weaknesses in their sides. We have not. We still don't have a good enough goal kicker. Green has gone so we rely on a young player there and our centres are not in my opinion good enough and we only have two anyway with Thornley out. We have people who can play there in Hughes and J Tomkins but that is no solution.

This year when certain key players were out we looked rudderless. Without Micky Mac and Lockers we were up against it. It will be the same again next year if they are injured. The best two young players have been Burgess and Williams. None of the others are at their level (thought Bateman started well but faded somewhat). I think we have a first 17 with some positions not well catered for and after that we rely on young players.

You mean like the rest of Super League?

That's us buggered then.

Bowen
Charnley
Gelling
Sarginson
Burgess
Williams
Smith
Crosby
McIlorum
Flower (Clubb during ban)
Tomkins
Farrell
O'Loughlin

Taylor (If here, else Powell)
Clubb (Sutton during ban)
Tautai
Bateman

I should have been clearer. We are relying on young players as 1st 17 plays and when the established first team players are out (e.g. MM and Lockers) we are also relying on [imore[/i young players to come in.

Powell, Williams, Burgess, Sarginson, Gelling and Bateman have all figured a lot this season. Burgess looks mature already and Williams looks the best of the rest. The rest are still learning yet will be regular 1st 17 members, not coming in when there are injuries.

With Flower on a long ban and it looking like Taylor is finished here we have lost our two best props. One permanently and one for as yet an unknown length of time. We have the guy from Wakefield to come in but the front row looks weak and may well require regular use of young players more than other teams will be doing.

I'd feel a lot happier with a decent kicker in the first team. Smith is a super player, but his goal kicking is pretty poor, and he seldom looks like converting anything that isn't in front of the sticks.

Presuming Taylor isn't going to be here, and while Flower is banned and Thornley is injured I can't see it being too different from:

Bowen
Charnley
Gelling
Sarginson
Burgess
Powell
Smith
Crosby
McIlorum
Clubb
Joel Tomkins
Farrell
O'Loughlin

Tautai
Pettybourne
Bateman
Williams

Hampshire to get game time when Bowen is rested. Still can't see the benefit of keeping Logan Tomkins on, he's way down the pecking order now. A goalkicking stand-off would be nice.

In terms of recruitment I think we will see what happens with Taylor and that could open up an opportunity to bring somebody in.

I would not rule out an experienced half-back in the mould of a Paul Deacon type player which may help with the goal kicking and more importantly organisation of play.

On reflection, the signing of Deacon was met with little excitement from supporters generally but it proved very important and I can see a similar thing happening.

Looking forward to seeing Tautai next season. In the game at Wakey he was sensational. He deservedly got MoM and he battered our pack almost single handed. IF he stays fit I can see him having a big impact from the bench next season.

Add to that Crosby, Flower (hopefully), Clubb, Pettybourne, Sutton, Dudson and Greenwood - that's 8 props without Taylor, and any 3 from Joel, Bateman, Faz and Lockers, I reckon back up hooker is the only weakness.

In the backs Sarginson and Gelling came on a bomb in the last month of the season. No worries there for me and with Thornley to back up too. The wingers are second to none. Bowen needs to be phased out with Hampshire getting more games.

That leaves the halves - Smith has been a revelation since signing. I believe that we need an old stager at SO in the Paul Deacon mould. I'm not sure there is anyone though. Would Terry Campese be worth a punt (I think Hull KR are interested)?

If and when Taylor goes I'd like to see a replacement brought in. With Flowers ban I think we'll start to look pretty weak in that front row for a good portion of the season unless we recruit.

There's talk of Taylor moving to Huddersfield on loan which if correct would give then an awesome front row selection of Taylor, Huby, Kopzack and Crabtree. I would be looking for Larne Patrick to come in the opposite direction. I really think we could turn him in to something pretty special here.

Kopczak is weak and Crabtree well past it.

No-one has the strength in depth that we have. Clubb, Crosby, Tautai, Pettybourne, Greenwood, Sutton, Dudson & Flower will do for me.

At Wigan we don't rely on a couple of guys like Leeds for example, we share the workload, so no one prop sticks out. We play as a team. Our pack even without Taylor is the best in the comp by miles. My only concern is if MMc is out, because with Joel back we have adequate cover if Lockers is injured.

There is depth there alright but very little strength and experience.

Flower is out until past Easter. Crosby had a good season.

Clubb, Eddie and Dudson are average to poor.

Greenwood and Sutton lack experience.

In the last few games of this season our starting props were Crosby and Flower and they were overall much better than Clubb and Eddie. When those two came on we were treading water. I think each had the odd decent game but overall they were just not good enough and not to the standard of the other two. Neither is Dudson.

Until Flower returns we will be relying on Crosby and Tauati as we relied on Crosby and Flower.

We are paying wages for too many average props in my opinion.



I really don't see how you can say our pack is the best by miles. The back row is very good but the props??? In my opinion we have three props who are good enough, Crosby, Flower and (based on how he went at Wakey) Tauati. We then have three average blokes in Clubb, Eddie and Dudson who are as likely to be downright poor as they are to pull a good game out. Then we have some young props.

With Flower out for so long we have two props up to the job IMO.

As to MM being out the problem is not just that it is who to spell with him when he is fit. Williams proved a good find in that role as he added something different when he came on. If he gets the 6 shirt then its either Powell ot Logon and I can't say either is very inspiring.

As erudite as ever.

Two points;

- Think you are being unfair on Clubb, who by common consent has had a good season, has made more breaks than any other prop and has rather confounded our early fears about him. I agree about Eddie, maybe he will improve in his second season.

- Maybe it's about time MMc started doing the full 80 minutes like Roby does, shouldn't be beyond a decent international hooker should it? If he really is as good as we make out then he should do the whole game. Of course that doesn't answer the problem of who backs up. I agree that Powell or Tomkins don't inspire. Doran and Wright may get more opportunities.

Wigan already have a goal kicking standoff at the club in Ryan Hampshire, he is probably the best kicker at the club and certainly the most gifted, but Wayne is so stubborn in his instance that Hampshire plays only fullback.
This is borne out by something Grimmy posted earlier in this thread, He put his 17 down and at No 6 he had Hampshire then in brackets ( it wont happen though ,but he is to good to leave out IMO).

Disagree with you on Clubb Dave. He's more than proven himself this season and has been on a par with Flower. I think he maybe suffers from the 2 x 2 substitution that we seem to have adopted as Flower has the benefit of a very solid and hardworking prop in Crosby in tandem wheras, generally speaking, Clubb doesn't have that luxury. Depending on just how good Tautai turns out to be, especially in a good team and following a Wigan preseason, then we look strong at prop next season (Flower's ban notwithstanding). We also don't yet know the truth regarding Taylor and whether he'll be with us next year. If he is, that changes the situation completely and it would be reasonable to say, should he be staying, that we are better in that position than we have been for some time.

The problem with playing Rocky at 6 is we would have to change our entire team ethos to accommodate him. He is an individually brilliant off the cuff player and playing to patterns and structures like we do simply is not his game, hence why he is utilised at fullback for us.

From what I told Rocky will get game time at both 1 and 6 next year so it will be interesting to are how he goes.

In relation to the criticism of Clubb, I don't get it. Think he has been excellent this year.

The best balance IMO, and a way to accommodate all 3, would be Rocky at 1 (eventually) Powell at 6 and Williams coming off the bench at 9. Williams and Powell have both shown they can defend well in the line and comfortably deal with 40+ tackles, I wouldn't fancy rocky needing to get through that sort of work. My main worry would be whether Powell has got enough quality to steer us round the park and take control, particularly in big games.

Clubb has been excellent this year and Crosby has come on a bundle. I'm happy with those two and Flower but after that we're a little short (even more so with Flower suspended). I think Tautai will go well and Sutton could develop but guys like Pettybourne and Dudson are a liability.

If and when Taylor leaves we need a replacement.

Two very biased comments there mate.

Firstly - Amor, Walmsley, Richards, Masoe, LMS, Thompson, Walker, Savelio represents as much depth as your selection of props.

Secondly, that is a shocking comment. Best pack in the comp is a bold claim, but by miles?

Ok I'll admit to being biased! But in my defence I was arguing the point with someone who was rubbishing our own props, so I went a little OTT.

My best pack claim is based on the second row really. Any 3 out of O'Loughlin, Tomkins, Farrell and Bateman would grace any team. O'Loughlin is the best all round forward in the British game so any pack that he is in has a head start.

Don't forget that the Wigan pack was a man down (as if we could) so I wouldn't read anything into your victory as far as your pack goes. On reflection. The Wigan, Saints and Wire packs will be strong next season. You wouldn't be surprised to know that I think the Wigan pack is the best. I think you'd struggle to argue with any conviction that Saints pack is better.

(Though no doubt you'll try)

Haha.

My opinion on our pack wasn't based on the game last week. I genuinely believe that our pack is better than most in the league and bettered by nobody.

I agree on O'Loughlin being the best player in the league, he is awesome. Farrell and Bateman are also top top players and especially in the case if Bateman he will only get better. Tomkins is yet to get going in my opinion but on his day he's a real handful and is very dependable defensively. I rate Flower very highly also and Crosby impresses me but is yet to find consistency in my opinion.

To balance that out, I also feel that Amor and Walmsley are top props and Roby is the best hooker in the league. Obviously we will miss Soliola and Manu but Vea and our next signing (which is rumoured to be announced very soon) will hopefully bridge that gap. Luke Thompson and Greg Richards are fast becoming hard to ignore.

Overall there's not a lot in it. You have the better 2nd row and loose forward and we have the better props and hooker. I personally believe we just about edge it. 90% of Wigan fans will say yours is the stronger pack, 90% of Saints fans will say that ours is; that's life. One thing for certain though is that neither pack is miles ahead of the other.