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| Quote ="craigizzard"O'Loughlin/McIlorum/Smith/Bowen is a pretty experienced long-term core. They should know how to manage games by now.'"
One's always injured, one's retired, one spends half the game on the bench and one's Matty Smith. We're doomed!  |
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O'Loughlin as said that he as no regrets what so ever going for the two points.
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| Quote ="jinkin jimmy"One's always injured, one's retired, one spends half the game on the bench and one's Matty Smith. We're doomed!
'"
You will think we are double doomed if you read todays Daily Express.
In the 3 half columns spread on the Grand Final it deals mostly with the retirement of Jamie Peacock with a 3" column on the match.
Then it finishes off with the following paragraph, "McGuire won the Harry Sunderland Trophy as man of the match and is likely to take over from Sinfield as WIGAN CAPTAIN NEXT SEASON,   .
The Union boys had 3 full pages as well as an headline leader column on the back page. |
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| Quote ="stillinthepast"You will think we are double doomed if you read todays Daily Express.
In the 3 half columns spread on the Grand Final it deals mostly with the retirement of Jamie Peacock with a 3" column on the match.
Then it finishes off with the following paragraph, "McGuire won the Harry Sunderland Trophy as man of the match and is likely to take over from Sinfield as WIGAN CAPTAIN NEXT SEASON,
.
The Union boys had 3 full pages as well as an headline leader column on the back page.'"
McGuire to Wigan ! Wouldn't that be a hoot !!
As long as you send George Williams and John Bateman in the other direction ......  |
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Well having read the entire thread I side with Grimmy and Sgt Pepper.
I don't think Wane can hide behind the statistics for much longer and his Wigan career is starting to resemble that of Noble. Noble could do no wrong for at least two years because he saved us from relegation and Wane is now living off the back of doing the double.
This season has been pretty dire in many respects. The away form has been shocking and cost us the LLS. A big contribution to that was problems with goal kicking which have been staring Wane in the face for two seasons. Only at the end does he give the job to Bowen. Who has now left so we have the same problem again.
Despite the home record some of the home performances have been less than convincing to put it mildly (Salford was one of the worst games I have ever seen).
Two seasons going out of the CC in the manner we did is very poor. Against HKR Wane made changes to the side and they looked like strangers and against Cas the season before Wane was out coached.
He chose to go into the season with one injured and two Rookie centres which backfired. It was by more luck than judgement we ended up with Bateman and Gildard there.
Smith has been poor but gets picked every week. Problems of leadership on the pitch have not been addressed. According to Wane himself we have been guilty of "dumb"play numerous times but we still keep playing "dumb" when it matters (CC v HKR and now v Leeds).
He also subs by the clock and can't fail to see when Micky Mac goes off we drop in intensity but he still keeps doing it. Why on earth he didn't play him for the full 80 in the GF I do not know.
Wane may have to deal with the squad he is given (though I not convinced he has no say in it) but there are long standing issues with the way the team plays that have not been addressed. I think a different coach would get more out of this squad than Wane manages in the same way Madge turned virtually the same team Noble had around when he took over.
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Who would you turn to DaveO?
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| Quote ="jinkin jimmy"Who would you turn to DaveO?'"
He doesn't have a clue. What a one-eyed post. So SW has been living off the double has he? It's not like he's got us to another Grand Final since then? Or even two? Certain people have an agenda against SW. I'm guessing the Grand Final loss didn't hurt too much for those people because they can argue they were right.
Pathetic.  |
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One thing to consider is some of the luck wane had in 2013. Look at the CC run. I mean seriously. It was on a plate with a knife and falk. Then warrington having their players dropping like flies after they had taken complete control in the final. But I wouldn't be willing to take credit away from wane for that, as leeds were disposed of to get there and warrington injuries or not still a very good comeback.
I think the 2013 double gives wane more good will in the bank than he deserves, overall.
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| Quote ="FlexWheeler"One thing to consider is some of the luck wane had in 2013. Look at the CC run. I mean seriously. It was on a plate with a knife and falk. Then warrington having their players dropping like flies after they had taken complete control in the final. But I wouldn't be willing to take credit away from wane for that, as leeds were disposed of to get there and warrington injuries or not still a very good comeback.
I think the 2013 double gives wane more good will in the bank than he deserves, overall.'" so he had some luck in 2013. He had some bad luck in 2012, 2014 and 2015. Or does only good luck count in the argument against Wane? |
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| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"so he had some luck in 2013. He had some bad luck in 2012, 2014 and 2015. Or does only good luck count in the argument against Wane?'"
I don't think wane's had any bad luck. In 2012 wigan just weren't good enough in the games that mattered. Theres been no bad luck in 2014 and 2015. It wasn't bad luck that wigan had a man sent off. It was a result of the mentality wane had instilled into them. In 2015 leeds last mninute try worked in wigans favour, as it meant they had a far easier run to get to the final, and in the final wigan had ample territory and posession to win the game against a tired but big hearted leeds team, but simply weren't good enough to score enough points. |
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| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"He doesn't have a clue. What a one-eyed post, SW has been living off the double has he? It's not like he's got us to another Grand Final since then? Or even two? Certain people have an agenda against SW. I'm guessing the Grand Final loss didn't hurt too much for those people because they can argue they were right.
Pathetic.
'"
Don't shoot I'm unarmed!  FYI I was a nervous wreck before and during the game. If we had won I would have given him his dues, and have never called for a change before now. I don't think he is a terrible coach or anything but he isn't getting the results despite (IMO) having all the resources required to do so. I do think he would be under far more pressure but for a ridiculously easy cup run in '13. Ask Saints fans whether just getting to finals is good enough.
Would you agree he needs to go if we don't win either major trophy once again next year? |
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| Quote ="jinkin jimmy"Who would you turn to DaveO?'"
That's the million dollar question.
No one ever really knows who is out there. To simply look at the straightforward options like Powell etc is just scratching the surface imo. Heck the last two coaches to win the NRL GF are both 'left field' appointments - Madge from us and Green from the reserves. |
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| Quote ="Grimmy"
Would you agree he needs to go if we don't win either major trophy once again next year?'"
I think that question gets right to the point of the argument people like myself and others are trying to make.
How long is enough before success has to be delivered? With the team and resources and an upheavl for two of our main rivals in Leeds and Wire we should be capitalising.
Don't expect an answer though. It's easy for the pro Wane brigade to talk about 'other success' like developing youngsters or reaching the GF. These things can't really be measured and are subjective to each individual (some are happy with 4 youngsters, others 6 etc) where hard facts like trophies in the cabinet are black and white - you either win them or you don't. |
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| Quote ="FlexWheeler"I don't think wane's had any bad luck. In 2012 wigan just weren't good enough in the games that mattered. Theres been no bad luck in 2014 and 2015. It wasn't bad luck that wigan had a man sent off. It was a result of the mentality wane had instilled into them. In 2015 leeds last mninute try worked in wigans favour, as it meant they had a far easier run to get to the final, and in the final wigan had ample territory and posession to win the game against a tired but big hearted leeds team, but simply weren't good enough to score enough points.'"
SW's bad luck was not getting Saints in the semi because we would have played a team who have ample territory and possession to win a game but are simply aren't good enough to score enough points against a team despite being the Entertainers of the competition. This would have had the team in top condition ready for a much harder proposition.
If SW has had no bad luck in 4 years I'm gonna start asking him to do my Lucky Fifteen every Saturday!
SW has also had back luck in not having a statue built in Merseyside thanking him for mentally damaging Wigoon players therefore ensuring they blow every game they play in and never achieve any level of success.
I'm not David Attenborough but maybe "Apes" don't have bad luck?? |
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I see, so Wane's bad luck was in having too easy a semi final!
Winners win. You could argue leeds were unlucky this season losing sutcliffe, aiton, jjb and then ward for the season, all of whom were first choice 13 players.
Wane has finished up trophyless in the majority of his seasons because he hasn't been good enough, not because any alleged bad luck has prevented it.
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If you're not winning trophies at a club the size of Wigan normally you'd come under a bit of pressure but Wane is developing a side to set us up for future success and it just feels like we're moving forward. If it all felt stale (like I felt it was getting earlier in the season) then I think it'd be right to freshen it up but the last couple of months have been positive.
The big decision to drop Charnley was a good sign, Gildarts form and Wanes bravery to keep him in was a breath of fresh air and the forward pack stopped playing like scared little girls. If we can get a bit more out of the experienced heads like Smith, Micky Mac and Lockers I think we'll have cracked it.
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| Quote ="FlexWheeler"I see, so Wane's bad luck was in having too easy a semi final!
Winners win. You could argue leeds were unlucky this season losing sutcliffe, aiton, jjb and then ward for the season, all of whom were first choice 13 players.
Wane has finished up trophyless in the majority of his seasons because he hasn't been good enough, not because any alleged bad luck has prevented it.'"
No his bad luck was not getting Saints in the semis. That would have been easier. Are you keeping up with this?
When are you going to start raising monies to build a statue? The guy is responsible for other teams winning major trophies year in and year out and yet you ape around sounding off on forums when you could have started a fun run across Car Mill Dam to kick start the fund raising. Just Waney's bad luck that your his biggest critic but can't be bothered to commemorate his devotion in helping other teams win trophies. Who'd believe it. |
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Wasn't Brian Noble "building something" back in 2009?
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| Quote ="NickyKiss"If you're not winning trophies at a club the size of Wigan normally you'd come under a bit of pressure but Wane is developing a side to set us up for future success and it just feels like we're moving forward. If it all felt stale (like I felt it was getting earlier in the season) then I think it'd be right to freshen it up but the last couple of months have been positive.
The big decision to drop Charnley was a good sign, Gildart's form and Wanes bravery to keep him in was a breath of fresh air and the forward pack stopped playing like scared little girls. If we can get a bit more out of the experienced heads like Smith, Micky Mac and Lockers I think we'll have cracked it.'"
Agree with most of that, but on your last sentence, I don't think we can.
I've never been much of a MickeyMac fan. I'd have Roby/Hodgson/Clark/Aiton/maybeafewothers in a heartbeat for preference. Lockers is surely nearing the end, and as for Smith... well, I just don't know. He seems to have regressed badly over the last season. he certainly doesn't look a starting half-back now, let alone for the whole of next season. I'd like to see him tried at 9. Could be, like TommyL, he'd be a better dummy-half than he ever was half-back. |
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| Quote ="Wigg'n"Wasn't Brian Noble "building something" back in 2009?'"
Brian Noble had been given almost 4 seasons and although he'd taken us forward from where we where in 2006, he was unable to take us to the next step, IE getting to finals regularly, this was proven when his successor won the SL title in his first year.
Shaun Wane has a proven track record of 3 trophies in 4 years and 4 finals in the same period. If luck and particular decisions, refereeing or otherwise, had gone our way we'd have 5 trophies in 4 years. |
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If we don't win the title or Cup next year he simply has to go.
I think he has earned that right, and whilst I admit I'm not his biggest fan I think he will bring home a major trophy next year and long term I think he will be regarded as the coach that laid the foundations of a successful era for the club.
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| Quote ="Wigg'n"Wasn't Brian Noble "building something" back in 2009?'"
Dennis Betts was also ''building something'' earlier in the noughties with the likes of kevin brown, aspinall, stephen wild, luke robinson et al.
Awful lot of contruction gone in wigan, not many finished buildings though. |
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| Quote ="FlexWheeler"Awful lot of contruction gone in wigan, not many finished buildings though.'"
To be fair given the turnover of players since Wane took over an LLS, league and cup double and 2 consecutive grand finals isn't a bad transition, i presume Saints must have won everything during that time given how bad a job Wane has done. |
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| Quote ="Grimmy"Don't shoot I'm unarmed!
FYI I was a nervous wreck before and during the game. If we had won I would have given him his dues, and have never called for a change before now. I don't think he is a terrible coach or anything but he isn't getting the results despite (IMO) having all the resources required to do so. I do think he would be under far more pressure but for a ridiculously easy cup run in '13. Ask Saints fans whether just getting to finals is good enough.
Would you agree he needs to go if we don't win either major trophy once again next year?'" Good question. The answer is, it depends. If we play good rugby, are consistent, get in the top two, get to Wembley, but don't win anything I'd be tempted to stick with him. On the other hand if we come fifth or below, but won at Wembley I'm not sure. For me winning a trophy isn't the be all and end all. Judging someone on trophies alone is too simplistic.
It won't come to that anyway. We will win the treble next season. 
Keeping us all happy (except the usual suspects who will think it is all down to Madge) |
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I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach.
My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies.
Quote ="sergeant pepper"That's the million dollar question.
No one ever really knows who is out there. To simply look at the straightforward options like Powell etc is just scratching the surface imo. Heck the last two coaches to win the NRL GF are both 'left field' appointments - Madge from us and Green from the reserves.'"
The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job.
The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side. |
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I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach.
My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies.
Quote ="sergeant pepper"That's the million dollar question.
No one ever really knows who is out there. To simply look at the straightforward options like Powell etc is just scratching the surface imo. Heck the last two coaches to win the NRL GF are both 'left field' appointments - Madge from us and Green from the reserves.'"
The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job.
The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side. | |
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FYI I was a nervous wreck before and during the game. If we had won I would have given him his dues, and have never called for a change before now. I don't think he is a terrible coach or anything but he isn't getting the results despite (IMO) having all the resources required to do so. I do think he would be under far more pressure but for a ridiculously easy cup run in '13. Ask Saints fans whether just getting to finals is good enough.
