Precisely - Wigan's most successful teams will always be the best of locally produced players complemented by a number of others brought in from outside, some of whom will be Antipodeans. It is obviously more difficult to attract a sufficient number of outside stars because of the salary cap, but there is no excuse for not spending the full amount of the cap. We are crying out for an Aussie/NZ prop, second row and half back.

No coincidence that MM brought in quality players in those positions in Lima, Hoffmann and Finch - I know he was very lucky they all became available as they did.

The fact that a figure of a squad of 35 is frequently quoted must mean that the quality of the playing staff as a whole has been diluted - even though not all of them count on the salary cap.

When one looks at the Leeds, Warrington and Saints squads, they certainly seem to have more "stars" who are performing well and to their potential than the current Wigan squad.

Poor recruitment the past couple of years, I am afraid. Over to you, IL, Rads or Wane - if there is money available to be spent, get it spent, even if it means paying a transfer fee. If Lockers doesn't make a huge difference ( which he may not as he is physically incapable of performing regularly to the best of his ability), Wigan are really going to struggle this year unless there are some signings.

Or maybe if Wigan can get their first choice pack onto the pitch, with Flower, Lockers and a fitter MM, the half backs, whoever they are, can start to perform to their full potential.

You can't invest considerable resources and faith in an academy only to then forget about it whenever the next first team contract expires.

That said, there's absolutely no guarantee that a special academy player will mature into an equally special first team regular.

The smart play is to balance one against the other but the task is made enormously difficult by the complications which sprout from how the former combine with the latter. It's no use putting talented academy lads alongside established pros who don't provide a particularly good example or possess serious flaws within their game because bad habits picked up at an early age can take a lifetime to undo.

The best teams think ahead two or three years. But it's very difficult. It only takes one or two bad buys from Australia to lock up a significant chunk of the salary cap for a desperately lengthy period. Suddenly long-term thinking goes out the window and the club resorts to fighting fires with panic buys.

Generally speaking I think Wigan have done ok. But Wane/the Chairman/whomever has allowed one or two deficiencies to develop within the team which, left unchecked, could become a destabilising problem. I think next season's transfer market is absolutely critical for Wigan. A couple of good quality established pros should plug the gap. But the sixty-four million dollar question is - who?

Any coach stupid enough to take on a job where they do not have full control of player recruitment deserves criticism. He is paid to deliver results no one can do that with one arm tied behind their back. I dont believe this is the case. Wane has full control and has failed miserably.

Why all the talk about next season? We've only played 6 games so far in this one. Imo we only need a small improvement to become a contender and with the troops yet to return I'm not writing us off yet. I say again, the quality of Superleague being what it is means we are still in with a chance of success this year. As crap as we were against Leeds we should have been buried. Trouble is, every team in the comp is poor!

Stop talking sense - this won't go down well!

Even if we lose to Saints (I'm not saying we will) - we can win against Wakey, Salford and Catalans, and by my reckoning we will be in 4th place or thereabouts. Something to build on for sure.

Our period of dominance in the late 80s and early 90s was achieved with a policy of the board and not the coach making the signings so we must have had quite a few stupid coaches by your reasoning back then. They seem to have managed to deliver results. To be a success a coach doesn't necessarily need to have chosen the squad he has at his disposal. He just needs to be able to organise their play in a way that fits the strengths of those players he has and does not rely on areas of the game at which they are weaker.

Perhaps we are currently struggling to adapt the style of play after the loss of some personnel with strengths we no longer have and will soon fix it. Perhaps the person(s) responsible for recruitment policy has made error(s) in their approach that are now cumulatively costing us as the team is just less capable of competing at the top. Maybe it is a bit of both. Either way some mistakes have been made somewhere, making mistakes is fine, everyone does that at some point. It is recognising that you have made mistakes and how you react to those mistakes that matters. The people in charge at the club (board and coach) have done alright so far so I am confident that what is currently not right will be fixed. It just remains to be seen how that fix is achieved.

Hang on a second: I said Wigan seem underpowered in the front row. This does not equate to writing Wigan off because the club still possesses quality players. And I agree, the competition seems mediocre. It's a lengthy season and injuries will undoubtedly go a long way toward deciding who finishes in the top 4.

Strange thing is, I seem to recall that most people on here pre-season were saying how strong the squad looked, and particularly the pack. They just haven't got going yet, but it's hard to believe they've all turned into no hopers in that time.

I think that's pretty offensive to the rest of the league to be honest with you. The problem for you is that we were pretty bad on the night too. If we'd turned it on like we did against Hull, with passes sticking and our left hand side (Hall and Ablett especially) not having their worst game in memory, then the result could have got embarrassing for you. Not every team in the competition is poor, there is no stand out excellent team like there has been in the past, but you'll need Leeds and Saints to fall off a cliff before either side is as poor as Wigan have been in the opening 6 games. One or two players performing poorly would require a small improvement, but realistically how many of your lot can walk around with any pride in their recent performances?

I think you are right about how it used to be in that I remember very well John Monie wanted to sign Phil Blake but Mo delivered him Frano Botica instead. Monie was quite frank he was baffled as to why Wigan would sign a player unproven at the game compared to Blake. He just got on with the job and look how that turned out.

However that was back then but what about now? Wane seemed very keen to play Williams at 6 and decided even with one being long term injured we didn't need any new centres over Thornley, Gelling and Sarge. Were those decisions forced upon him or, as I suspect, they were his idea in the first place?



Do you think Wane has recognised these mistakes? You said yourself "He just needs to be able to organise their play in a way that fits the strengths of those players he has " and do you honestly think he is doing this? I don't because we keep playing the same way, week in week out. He is trying to play the same game that brought success before with players who can't execute the tactics. Our passing is shocking and the fast lateral moving the ball along the line requires accurate passing. Bowen is not Sam Tomkins but he is trying to use him exactly the same way.

As to the pack there are some big lads in it so I don't think size is an issue but they spread out and don't tackle as a unit so are not putting players on their backs in defense and if you look at the stats they don't do many meters or carries on attack but not in my opinion because they are being stopped dead but because they move it wide very often.

To me it looks like the last thing Wane is doing is organising the teams play in a way that fits the strengths of those players he has.

It may be when Flower and Lockers return the old tactics deliver more success than they are doing now but what if Lockers is injured again and why in his and Flowers absence hasn't Wane adapted the game plan to the players he [ihas[/i got available?

I wasn't trying to be offensive (for a change

) but just calling it as I see it. I was watching NZ Warriors this weekend with Tomkins, Leulai and Hoffman in their ranks, all of whom stroll into virtually any team in SL. What have we replaced that trio with? Add to that any other talented Brit apart from those at Leeds are willing to chance their arm in the NRL or RU with no comparable talent coming the other way and the results are there for all to see. I agree we have a more even comp, but quality wise we are miles off. Your best forward is a journeyman NRL player - need I say more?

All that said, (and admittedly this is going O/T a bit) the NRL is hardly at a creative peak either. In fact, you could argue it the other way too (Superleague 'journeyman' like Hodgson, L'Estrange, Soliola are getting rave reviews there). The Big Three at Melbourne are all ageing, as is Thurston. Sam B has gone, as has Hayne. In terms of current superstars, well, they still have Inglis, and DCE and Shaun Johnson are wonderful talents, but too early to be called 'great' yet.

Very true and I think we all need to be patient. I'm frustrated and hate to see us struggle like we are but we're too good not to find form at some point and when we do we'll get ourselves back in the hunt for trophies.

What we do need to do is fight out hardest to stay right in the mix for that 4th spot whist our form isn't good. I look at the fixtures this weekend and I think a few above us will lose so if we can get a win (even a scrappy one pointer) we could get up to 4th/5th. That mentally takes some pressure off and sets us up for the week after.

I want Bowen to be dropped but not with Hampshire coming in at FB. Rocky is an out and out 6 and the sooner the Wigan staff stop messing about with him the better!

Worrying that we've not brought a quality specialist fullback through into the first team for a long, long time! Perhaps its the way the game is going in general e.g. moving players from other positions there like Sam Tomkins etc. The only decent one we had was Matty Russell but sadly he left for Oz and wasn't a lot we could do with that one and its a shame Wire are benefitting now.

It should be number one priority at the end of the season.

Russell was a loss; he looks a good prospect now.

Russell reminded me of Jason Robinson jinking in off the wing last week - although probably not quite as good as Jason!

I wonder if it would be worth giving Rocky a go on the wing as Wane has made it clear he doesn't want to play him at 6, even though the vast majority of us think he should be given the opportunity to play in his rightful position.

Shaun Edwards and Frano Botica, to name but two, also started on the wing before switching to stand off.

He is as big as Robinson and Russell and his shortcomings under the high ball may be exposed a bit less on the wing than at full back. And he has pace to burn!

I can't speak for the other two - but Soliola was never a 'journeyman' at Saints. He left the NRL as an initially very promising centre/second-row whose career was hampered by his own versatility. At Saints he wasn't helped by a couple of lengthy injuries - but when fully fit he was easily one of our best performers. He did have a tendency to leap out of the line occasionally. But since that should be an easy problem to fix in training I can only assume the coach wasn't opposed (probably because when he caught the ball receiver early - they stayed caught).

Fair enough, but the general point remains.

Wane spoke quite negatively about Matty Russell at one point last year saying he couldn't play fullback at Wigan because he wasn't able to do some of the things required (by that I presume he means linking the play).

I do know what he means tbh and I can understand why he wants Hampshire to become a fullback because he can both run the ball and create for others but he just doesn't look cut out for the position in other areas.

Sam Tomkins took some flak for parts of his game at fullback but the one thing he always had been is brave! He's also a real competitor and a confident lad.Hampshire looks nervous in the position and doesn't seem the most confident to me.

Well, the only method we have for testing the hypothesis is direct competition. And they're still beating us.

Besides, it's not unusual for players to suddenly raise their performance following a move. It's easy to become stale plying your trade at a single club.

I think we have to get out of the habit of thinking that just because a player spends most of his career in the juniors in one position it automatically follows that he will continue to do so in the seniors.

For a start, players only develop into full maturity usually after they have spent two or three seasons training and/or playing with the seniors (somewhere between the ages of 21 and 23). That transformation can have a significant impact upon the player's body size and shape. Paul Sculthorpe,, for instance, was a lanky beanpole who was largely ineffective during his first two seasons at St. Helens. Suddenly he turns 23 and he looks like something out of the Greek Olympiad. Even going back to the days of semi-professionalism - no one in his right mind would think Andy Platt's physique at age 19 was a sure indicator that he would play prop.

According to the traditional method of evaluating juniors - Wigan's academy successes should have translated to a similar degree of success at senior level. It hasn't. Perhaps this is because other clubs view success at the junior levels as desirable - but not essential. What really matters is performance - [ias a precursor to further development in the first team[/i.

Plus Josh Hodgson is an international player, like it or not. He has surprised me though, but I'll wait for more than 3 games before making my mind up on him.

Hodgson has looked good, and I wish him and the other English players in the NRL well. I'm just saying that in better days, the what, third or fourth-rated best English hooker wouldn't have been expected to be the star of the show in the NRL.

People are (rightly) criticising the current standard of players in SL. I'm just saying that, to some extent, this is mirrored in the NRL, who are down to one bone fide superstar now. And BTW, there's crazy local newspaper talk down here that Bath are after him as well!

Wane has been vocal on his preference for Williams at 6. He has also made other comments since about Williams' position in the side and planning to keep him at different times in two different roles (I have mentioned in other threads how I would prefer him to stay tight lipped about his plans but that is another issue). The lack of cover at centre is an issue but both Sarginson and Gelling finished last season very well and it was not foreseen by anyone that Gelling's form would revert in the way it has. The main fault in that area seems IMO to have been the expectation that the still very young Gildart would be ready to act as backup. He isn't just yet as was shown in the friendlies.

The most important bit IMO is the last sentence of your first paragraph. Who exactly is in charge of recruitment? I suspect it is not the coach who makes the signings but a combination of Lenegan and Radlinski. Wane may be able to request players or strengthening in certain areas but I suspect that the men above him determine who exactly arrives at Wigan. (We are all just guessing on that matter though). A major issue for me (and many others) is that we did not recruit an experienced stand-off to replace Blake Green. This decision whoever made it has left us in a situation where we only have young lads to play there and they unfortunately will have to sink or swim as there is no other alternative. This problem is exacerbated by the problems our pack is going through as those young lads have to come in behind a usually beaten pack (that seems to love giving away penalties). It also means that a mis-firing Smith cannot be taken out of the team either as that would mean two kids having to sink or swim. Had we made a signing of an experienced stand-off coming to the end of his career (Terry Campese seems the most obvious missed opportunity) then we would have had the option of trying the young trio of Williams, Hampshire and Powell alongside either of the old heads and would have been able to take out an out of form senior half without pitching two kids in together. As I said I believe Wane has been put in this position rather than requesting it by the men above him not wanting to sign a stop gap stand-off. Whether Wane chose the best of the three options for his number 6 remains to be seen.



I think the issue with performance is more linked to the current form of the players than the system not being right for their strengths. The same plays were executed to great effect on a regular basis only last season but something just now isn't right. It could be that the problem comes from the difference between Green at 6 and Williams at 6 (in the sense that he is learning his way in rather than any deficiency- I am not looking to blame Williams). It could be the absence of Lockers skills and leadership and a lack of confidence without him from the squad. We are all aware of our records with and without our captain. That said I think the coach does need to recognise that there are problems and to rework the game plan to fix them. Whether that means altering the way plays are organised and style of play until timing and handling gets better or by moving different players into roles such as FB who are more able to execute the plays he does need to recognise the problems and change things. Our discipline too is a big problem.

I am not convinced that he has recognised the mistakes as yet and agree with you that we keep trying the same things time and time again that the team are currently unable to execute. Wane's ability or inability (whichever it turns out to be) to change things and navigate this poor spell will indicate his true ability as a coach. Hopefully he will adapt the game plan and we will play our way out of this patchy start and challenge for honours and he will silence the critics. If not and he simply sticks to the same misfiring formula until it works or until Lockers comes back to recue the team then he may not be a the club for very long after.

Good post.