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The point is I feel players should be phased in. We have not phased in a half. Powell looked like he may be the one ready first, then suddenly it seems we have given up on him and Williams gets the nod.
Williams with very little game time as a first team half suddenly is expected to sink or swim. At the moment for me he is sinking.
First team is not a place to rely on untested players in key positions so heavily. A first team shirt especially in the halves should be earned and fought for.
In a slightly different situation for example had Green stayed or we recruited and Smith was playing like he currently is you would expect Williams to get the nod and a run out and a chance to earn the shirt and make it his, just like Tomkins did when the opportunity presented itself. We now have 1 senior half and 3 lads with no experience going for the same position and it appears a coach who is totally intent on backing Williams at the potential cost of isolating the other young halves.
3 into 1 doesn't go. We will lose at least one of them probably 2 at some point.
In relation to Props and Vea between him and Tautai it had to be an either or, not both as they play similar roles but given one could slot into the backrow and allowing for injury to SOL and what I doubt will be anything other than a pointless signing in Patrick then why not bring in both. We certainly would have added that much needed size.
To me the balance of the squad is just wrong and we have had opportunities for that to not be the case.
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| Quote ="jonh"The point is I feel players should be phased in. We have not phased in a half. Powell looked like he may be the one ready first, then suddenly it seems we have given up on him and Williams gets the nod.
Williams with very little game time as a first team half suddenly is expected to sink or swim. At the moment for me he is sinking.
First team is not a place to rely on untested players in key positions so heavily. A first team shirt especially in the halves should be earned and fought for.
In a slightly different situation for example had Green stayed or we recruited and Smith was playing like he currently is you would expect Williams to get the nod and a run out and a chance to earn the shirt and make it his, just like Tomkins did when the opportunity presented itself. We now have 1 senior half and 3 lads with no experience going for the same position and it appears a coach who is totally intent on backing Williams at the potential cost of isolating the other young halves.
3 into 1 doesn't go. We will lose at least one of them probably 2 at some point.
In relation to Props and Vea between him and Tautai it had to be an either or, not both as they play similar roles but given one could slot into the backrow and allowing for injury to SOL and what I doubt will be anything other than a pointless signing in Patrick then why not bring in both. We certainly would have added that much needed size.
To me the balance of the squad is just wrong and we have had opportunities for that to not be the case.'"
I agree with most of that but I can't agree with you saying Williams is sinking. So far he has played well against Widnes and Brisbane and had a reasonably quiet day against HKR with the ball but did score a try and was a rock in defence at times.
He's played far better then his partner who should be the one leading the way. |
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Problem you have is Williams is a hooker for me (and a bloody good one) rock solid in defence good distribution! He's not a stand off who will take the game by the scruff of the neck! you needed a old head at 6! Smith is letting Williams down at the moment plus playing behind a beaten pack isn't helping! He's going too be a good one that lad if you don't want him sure we could take him off your hands!
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| Quote ="jinkin jimmy"You can't keep applying this logic. There is a crop of youngsters coming through every year. When do you decide to stick with any particular group if you always have kids coming through? Kevin Brown and Luke Robinson are still plying their trade - how many youngsters would we have "wasted" if we'd stuck with them? If we stick with the 4 you named, what happens to the next lot on the conveyor belt?
Aboveusonlypie has it right imo.'"
I don't want to lose either or both of Williams and Hampshire. They are the best pair of halfbacks we or any other club have produced for 10 or more years. I don't think we can fit them both in the first team together at this time, so I would play Hampshire at #1 and Williams at #6 over the next 2 to 3 years., with the intention of them playing at #6 and #7 in three years time. If someone comes through who is better in that period then I would review it, but I haven't seen it any of the teams from U16 to U19 at the moment.
We can't compare that with the Brown / Robinson situation as Robinson was moved on for off field issues and Brown should have been a keep. At that time there was also a reserve grade/U23/U21 competition for them to play in?
I suppose they could go out on loan but at the moment Hampshire is our only cover at #1 and #6. Williams covers #6 #7 and #9 as does Powell.
Here's a question would you sacrifice Williams and Hampshire for say Dobson and Burns, or Kelly and Campese. |
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"Here's a question would you sacrifice Williams and Hampshire for say Dobson and Burns, or Kelly and Campese.'"
As you know sport is competitive. Not just between teams but also within the team it is a competitive environment.
Brian Noble brought Tim Smith in. A better player than many gave him credit for. He got injured and Sam Tomkins got his place. Smith didn't get back in when he was fit, because Sam took his chance. That's how sport works.
Telling youngsters they will be given a run of games is a mistake. They have to earn the shirt then keep it by playing well, just like Sam did. If you're good enough then you stay in.
I would have bought a Stand Off for this season. My choice would have been Danny Brough. Then when Williams or Hampshire got a chance they'd know that they have to take it.
You can't plan too far ahead in sport. If you suffer a run of bad results then a new coach comes in with a different philosophy and under pressure to get results right away. Although Shaun Wane (and I'm his biggest fan by the way) has three years on his contract, if he doesn't make the top 4 this year or get to Wembley then his position is under threat. That's life at Wigan. As a previous poster says - the future never comes. Sport is played very much in the present. If we lose at Cas and then at Leeds the pressure to beat Saints will be massive. Who would you fancy to play against them - right now?
If I were Shaun Wane I'd be wanting some experience at Stand Off - this season, because next season doesn't exist. |
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I don't want to lose either or both of Williams and Hampshire. They are the best pair of halfbacks we or any other club have produced for 10 or more years. I don't think we can fit them both in the first team together at this time, so I would play Hampshire at #1 and Williams at #6 over the next 2 to 3 years., with the intention of them playing at #6 and #7 in three years time. If someone comes through who is better in that period then I would review it, but I haven't seen it any of the teams from U16 to U19 at the moment.
We can't compare that with the Brown / Robinson situation as Robinson was moved on for off field issues and Brown should have been a keep. At that time there was also a reserve grade/U23/U21 competition for them to play in?
I suppose they could go out on loan but at the moment Hampshire is our only cover at #1 and #6. Williams covers #6 #7 and #9 as does Powell.
Here's a question would you sacrifice Williams and Hampshire for say Dobson and Burns, or Kelly and Campese.'"
That's a good question (so don't expect me to answer it!). The point I want to make is that there's a constant call on here for us to play more and more kids and we have got ourselves into a pickle at the moment imo. I am honestly pondering your question. What I would say is that we have a current pairing in Smith and Williams that the majority of SL clubs wouldn't want compared to what they currently have. Seriously, can you name me 3 worse pairings in SL than that? I accept that we may be better fixed as we look forward but as others have said, what about the present?
As I posted on another thread, the overall quality of SL is such that our squad could clean up this year because I do believe we have the "deepest" squad out there. That doesn't automatically translate to quality at half back this season though. |
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This thread is a rare beast, some constructive posts with opposite views but no childishness. For mine the current half back policy is worth a go, if it doesn't work you can guarantee a Campese like signing next season. I would love to see IL fighting the cause of a two player marquee salary cap exemption as from what I've seen so far the quality on offer this season is worryingly mediocre across all clubs.
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| A Campese (or, indeed, a Brough, assuming he'd come) is only a stop-gap solution anyway. Campese is 30 and has hardly had a full season since I started watching the NRL regularly about five years ago. Brough is 32 (!).
If we must have a import, how about a younger one who hasn't established himself yet in the NRL. I'm thinking someone like Jacob Miller, only good. 
Brooks at the Tigers, say. And I'll bet the Warriors have a few.
All that said, I pretty much agree with those who say, sort the pack and discipline out and give Williams more time. He doesn't look to be doing that bad to me. He has the pace, and has been on the shoulder to score some support tries, plus put in a few good final passes. |
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Williams has been fine and will nail that spot IMO. He'd really thrive on the back of a more disciplined team, making less errors and allowing Smith more time and ball to play with.
The halves are fighting with one hand tied behind their backs at the moment.
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| Quote ="moto748"A Campese (or, indeed, a Brough, assuming he'd come) is only a stop-gap solution anyway. Campese is 30 and has hardly had a full season since I started watching the NRL regularly about five years ago. Brough is 32 (!).
If we must have a import, how about a younger one who hasn't established himself yet in the NRL. I'm thinking someone like Jacob Miller, only good.
Brooks at the Tigers, say. And I'll bet the Warriors have a few.
All that said, I pretty much agree with those who say, sort the pack and discipline out and give Williams more time. He doesn't look to be doing that bad to me. He has the pace, and has been on the shoulder to score some support tries, plus put in a few good final passes.'"
Having watched most of the Tigers games last season Brooks would be a fantastic signing, but I doubt he'd come at this stage of his career. I think we are only really going to attract a player from the NRL at the end of his career, or if he's had problems.
I don't understand your point about the persons age though. Who knows how long a player can stay at the top? If he's fit and playing well then surely we want the best. As I said lets worry about THIS season first. Who knows what the future holds? It's far easier to bring youngsters into a top side than a struggling side. If we'd signed Danny Brough and won the double (no guarantees of course, but I'd fancy us) then we could bring Williams/Hampshire through slowly into a top side instead of a side struggling to make the top 4 (because make no mistake this season WILL be a struggle to make the top 4)
An example. Pat Richards leaves and we are all congratulating ourselves that we have found his replacement from within. Except we haven't because he wont be here next year. And what's more he isn't worth his place at the moment either. Maybe if we'd bought Tom Briscoe there'd be no problem, both last season and this season and then in the future too. |
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Salary also has to be taken into account, yes many would like to see the likes of Todd Carney play 6 at Wigan, his ability is unquestionable, but how much money will he or others from the NRL be demanding to play SL? Williams +Hampshire+ Powell's salaries might only be slightly over what Carney is being paid at Cats.
Personally I wouldn't trade the 3 or even 2 of the 3 for a top NRL player who's likely to be 30 plus.
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| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Having watched most of the Tigers games last season Brooks would be a fantastic signing, but I doubt he'd come at this stage of his career. I think we are only really going to attract a player from the NRL at the end of his career, or if he's had problems.
I don't understand your point about the persons age though. Who knows how long a player can stay at the top? If he's fit and playing well then surely we want the best. As I said lets worry about THIS season first. Who knows what the future holds? It's far easier to bring youngsters into a top side than a struggling side. If we'd signed Danny Brough and won the double (no guarantees of course, but I'd fancy us) then we could bring Williams/Hampshire through slowly into a top side instead of a side struggling to make the top 4 (because make no mistake this season WILL be a struggle to make the top 4)
An example. Pat Richards leaves and we are all congratulating ourselves that we have found his replacement from within. Except we haven't because he wont be here next year. And what's more he isn't worth his place at the moment either. Maybe if we'd bought Tom Briscoe there'd be no problem, both last season and this season and then in the future too.'"
Tom Briscoe point is interesting. I'd sooner see us chase the best players in SL/UK based rather than over the hill NRL players. Briscoe, Moon, Clark, Hardaker all moved from UK clubs to UK clubs, and all of which would get into our 17. |
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"Tom Briscoe point is interesting. I'd sooner see us chase the best players in SL/UK based rather than over the hill NRL players. Briscoe, Moon, Clark, Hardaker all moved from UK clubs to UK clubs, and all of which would get into our 17.'"
Good discussion this with quite a few differing views and no petty squabbles. The other Wigan site is like a childrens playground.
Wigan did look at Hardaker but he chose to stay closer to home. Briscoe, at the time Burgess was coming through so I guess they thought it wasn't worth the salary cap risk. Clarke is a very good hooker but as you all well know I'm not a fan of scooter hookers and lets see how he goes at Wire.
Joel Moon WAS a big miss IMO and would have been the perfect replacement for George Carmont.
I still don't know how we will mange the Williams, Powell, Hampshire situation and just hope that common sense prevails in the end. There were some interesting comments by Andrew Johns and Darren Lockyer regarding Anthony Milfords performance during the Brisbane v Souths match this morning. |
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"There were some interesting comments by Andrew Johns and Darren Lockyer regarding Anthony Milfords performance during the Brisbane v Souths match this morning.'"
What did they say? From what I've seen of him I don't think he's a 6 or 7 in a million years. |
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| Quote ="Charlie Sheen"What did they say? From what I've seen of him I don't think he's a 6 or 7 in a million years.'"
It was along the lines of how difficult is the move from FB to HB. They asked also about splitting the halves which both disagreed with. Lockyer confirmed it was easier (but still tough) for him to move up aged 26 but with the same team, whereas Milford was doing it much younger in an unfamiliar one. |
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I've enjoyed pointing out to NZ Warriors fans on the NRL forum I post on that Joel Moon looks a better player for Leeds than he ever did for the Warriors! I never thought he was all that in the NRL, but I reckon some Aussies thrive in the rather more attacking style of the SL compared to the NRL. I'd cite Luke Walsh as another example.
I never thought Briscoe was all that at Hull either, but, to be fair, he's looked pretty impressive since he's been at the Rhinos.
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| Quote ="Charlie Sheen"What did they say? From what I've seen of him I don't think he's a 6 or 7 in a million years.'"
To be fair Milford hardly touched the ball Souths were so dominant. So it would be difficult to judge him.
It's just possible that great though Johns and Lockyer were, Wayne Bennett knows a thing or two more about coaching!!!! |
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| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"To be fair Milford hardly touched the ball Souths were so dominant. So it would be difficult to judge him.
It's just possible that great though Johns and Lockyer were, Wayne Bennett knows a thing or two more about coaching!!!!'"
Nobody is infallible. Afterall, he did sign Greg Eden... |
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| Quote ="Charlie Sheen"Nobody is infallible. Afterall, he did sign Greg Eden...'"
Haha. Very good point!
I wonder if Greg will get a game? Remember when Eddie called him the new Billy Slater?  |
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| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Haha. Very good point!
I wonder if Greg will get a game? [uRemember when Eddie called him the new Billy Slater?[/u
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It was Nathan Brown (Eden's coach at the time) who said that. By the end of that same season IIRC Eden had fallen out of the side and was shipped out of Huddersfield and joined Hull KR. |
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There was a story in the Aussie press after Brisbane's first day of pre season saying Eden had come dead last in the fitness tests. Out of all the props and including big backrowers like Thaiday the guy was the most unfit and was really struggling to get through it.
Strikes me as a lad who let hype get to his head! The fact that Sam Tomkins was always the opposite set him apart from guys like Eastmond, Myler and latterly people like Eden.
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Whilst I think Friday's performance against Cas was nothing short of appalling I'm not going to hit the panic button just yet, in the words of Nobby they'll have to put 'humpty dumpty back together again'.
Watching the NRL start this week made me realise how many ex-Wigan players are running around that competition, I've seen Leuluai and Hoffman carry the Warriors at Newcastle, Richards drop a last minute goal to win for the Tigers at Gold Coast and Green play at 6 for Melbourne, our favourite son ST didn't feature due to tight hamstrings and everything Madge touches turns to gold at the moment...even Pettybourne looked half decent. Furthermore you can consider the players that aren't running around and are either working behind the scenes in the NRL or in the media - Carmont, Finch, Riddell.
The point is this, look at our line ups for the last two GF wins and the CC win in 2010, 2011 and 2013:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Super ... rand_Final
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Challenge_Cup
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Super ... rand_Final
We have lost an awful lot of talent over the last five years and some of it is making strides in the NRL, what have we replaced them with? - Some will point out the salary cap is to blame and to some extent they would be correct as the player drain continues from SL to the NRL.
Whilst its nice to see the conveyor belt of young talent coming through our ranks...before it heads to the bright lights of the NRL (Burgess) we have shifted from attracting experienced talent to big fish in little ponds, unproven overseas recruits and players returning from RU.
Compound this with an inability to close out games at present, the loss of several forwards in the off season, poor recruitment policies and Mr Pewterschmidt cutting every possible corner to increase profits it's been starting to unravel.
I hope it starts to come together and SW turns it around, as people have pointed out Flower and Mossop will be welcome returns and Bateman is exceptional. However, Williams is inexperienced at 6, Farrell is giving away far too many penalities and Gelling is becoming our Francis Meli i.e. a liability. |
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Whilst I think Friday's performance against Cas was nothing short of appalling I'm not going to hit the panic button just yet, in the words of Nobby they'll have to put 'humpty dumpty back together again'.
Watching the NRL start this week made me realise how many ex-Wigan players are running around that competition, I've seen Leuluai and Hoffman carry the Warriors at Newcastle, Richards drop a last minute goal to win for the Tigers at Gold Coast and Green play at 6 for Melbourne, our favourite son ST didn't feature due to tight hamstrings and everything Madge touches turns to gold at the moment...even Pettybourne looked half decent. Furthermore you can consider the players that aren't running around and are either working behind the scenes in the NRL or in the media - Carmont, Finch, Riddell.
The point is this, look at our line ups for the last two GF wins and the CC win in 2010, 2011 and 2013:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Super ... rand_Final
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Challenge_Cup
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Super ... rand_Final
We have lost an awful lot of talent over the last five years and some of it is making strides in the NRL, what have we replaced them with? - Some will point out the salary cap is to blame and to some extent they would be correct as the player drain continues from SL to the NRL.
Whilst its nice to see the conveyor belt of young talent coming through our ranks...before it heads to the bright lights of the NRL (Burgess) we have shifted from attracting experienced talent to big fish in little ponds, unproven overseas recruits and players returning from RU.
Compound this with an inability to close out games at present, the loss of several forwards in the off season, poor recruitment policies and Mr Pewterschmidt cutting every possible corner to increase profits it's been starting to unravel.
I hope it starts to come together and SW turns it around, as people have pointed out Flower and Mossop will be welcome returns and Bateman is exceptional. However, Williams is inexperienced at 6, Farrell is giving away far too many penalities and Gelling is becoming our Francis Meli i.e. a liability. | |
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| Sep 2024 | Jul 2024 | LINK |
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Quote ="yickpie24"Whilst I think Friday's performance against Cas was nothing short of appalling I'm not going to hit the panic button just yet, in the words of Nobby they'll have to put 'humpty dumpty back together again'.
Watching the NRL start this week made me realise how many ex-Wigan players are running around that competition, I've seen Leuluai and Hoffman carry the Warriors at Newcastle, Richards drop a last minute goal to win for the Tigers at Gold Coast and Green play at 6 for Melbourne, our favourite son ST didn't feature due to tight hamstrings and everything Madge touches turns to gold at the moment...even Pettybourne looked half decent. Furthermore you can consider the players that aren't running around and are either working behind the scenes in the NRL or in the media - Carmont, Finch, Riddell.
The point is this, look at our line ups for the last two GF wins and the CC win in 2010, 2011 and 2013:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Super ... rand_Final
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Challenge_Cup
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Super ... rand_Final
We have lost an awful lot of talent over the last five years and some of it is making strides in the NRL, what have we replaced them with? - Some will point out the salary cap is to blame and to some extent they would be correct as the player drain continues from SL to the NRL.
Whilst its nice to see the conveyor belt of young talent coming through our ranks...before it heads to the bright lights of the NRL (Burgess) we have shifted from attracting experienced talent to big fish in little ponds, unproven overseas recruits and players returning from RU.
Compound this with an inability to close out games at present, the loss of several forwards in the off season, poor recruitment policies and Mr Pewterschmidt cutting every possible corner to increase profits it's been starting to unravel.
I hope it starts to come together and SW turns it around, as people have pointed out Flower and Mossop will be welcome returns and Bateman is exceptional. However, Williams is inexperienced at 6, Farrell is giving away far too many penalities and Gelling is becoming our Francis Meli i.e. a liability.'"
So Aussies and NZer's have gone home when there is MUCH more money on the table in the NRL... It's really not rocket science... Too many of us are living in the past, and should realise it's the lack of money in SL is doing the damage. |
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Quote ="yickpie24"Whilst I think Friday's performance against Cas was nothing short of appalling I'm not going to hit the panic button just yet, in the words of Nobby they'll have to put 'humpty dumpty back together again'.
Watching the NRL start this week made me realise how many ex-Wigan players are running around that competition, I've seen Leuluai and Hoffman carry the Warriors at Newcastle, Richards drop a last minute goal to win for the Tigers at Gold Coast and Green play at 6 for Melbourne, our favourite son ST didn't feature due to tight hamstrings and everything Madge touches turns to gold at the moment...even Pettybourne looked half decent. Furthermore you can consider the players that aren't running around and are either working behind the scenes in the NRL or in the media - Carmont, Finch, Riddell.
The point is this, look at our line ups for the last two GF wins and the CC win in 2010, 2011 and 2013:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Super ... rand_Final
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Challenge_Cup
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Super ... rand_Final
We have lost an awful lot of talent over the last five years and some of it is making strides in the NRL, what have we replaced them with? - Some will point out the salary cap is to blame and to some extent they would be correct as the player drain continues from SL to the NRL.
Whilst its nice to see the conveyor belt of young talent coming through our ranks...before it heads to the bright lights of the NRL (Burgess) we have shifted from attracting experienced talent to big fish in little ponds, unproven overseas recruits and players returning from RU.
Compound this with an inability to close out games at present, the loss of several forwards in the off season, poor recruitment policies and Mr Pewterschmidt cutting every possible corner to increase profits it's been starting to unravel.
I hope it starts to come together and SW turns it around, as people have pointed out Flower and Mossop will be welcome returns and Bateman is exceptional. However, Williams is inexperienced at 6, Farrell is giving away far too many penalities and Gelling is becoming our Francis Meli i.e. a liability.'"
So Aussies and NZer's have gone home when there is MUCH more money on the table in the NRL... It's really not rocket science... Too many of us are living in the past, and should realise it's the lack of money in SL is doing the damage. | |
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| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Club Owner | 3422 | No
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| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Jan 2004 | 21 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jun 2015 | Apr 2015 | LINK |
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| Quote ="NickyKiss"There was a story in the Aussie press after Brisbane's first day of pre season saying Eden had come dead last in the fitness tests. Out of all the props and including big backrowers like Thaiday the guy was the most unfit and was really struggling to get through it.
Strikes me as a lad who let hype get to his head! The fact that Sam Tomkins was always the opposite set him apart from guys like Eastmond, Myler and latterly people like Eden.'"
Actually that was in mid 30's and high humidity and he struggled liked most people would on their first day if you had just come over from the UK. He wasn't unfit, he just struggled with the conditions. Hardly surprising. |
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| Club Coach | 29803 | No
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| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Nov 2004 | 20 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
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| Quote ="Bondi_Warrior"Actually that was in mid 30's and high humidity and he struggled liked most people would on their first day if you had just come over from the UK. He wasn't unfit, he just struggled with the conditions. Hardly surprising.'"
It must have been a lazy piece of journalism by an Aussie bagging a Pom then.
Even less surprising. |
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