1/10 must try harder.

Don't generally agree with Saints fans but in all honesty hes pretty much on the money! 90% of our fans have been obsessed with Hock for a long time and the Hock love in with half of them have is a joke!

It was pathetic when he returned from his drugs ban and got a standing ovation - if thats not treating like a hero then what is - Still think til today thats a joke and anyone who did this was pathetic IMO!

Add to that all the wiganers who have raved 'best 2nd row in SL / Best in the world' Rubbish for years when he's nothing but!

Fact is for every bit of brilliance hock ever did, he cancelled it out with stupid errors, daft offloads and giving away penalties. If anything he's only ever been an average SR who, on his day, had the ability to perform at a high level. The demi-god treatement he's receievd from some of our fans for years is a joke and at least now some have woken up and smelt the coffee!

I'm completely comfortable with you believing that

Of course you are. You've no other option.

He's a handy player a good one, but best forward in SL?

Before his ban, he did not prevent Wigan flirting with relegation, it took the best forward in SL at the time to turn that around, along with Noble.

He has been playing in one of the best Wigan sides for a good 10 years, so he is going to look good, and I do think he is a good player.

But his true test will be at Widnes, if he still shows up and does the hard work, then all power to him. However, at Wigan (and I don't watch every match they play) , but he seamed to come on after the hard yards where done, by the rest of a quality pack.

I recall when we played Warrington last season, Sia came on after 20 minutes and totally ripped into Warrington, he was the talk of the game afterwards. Yet the other players had to soak up alot of hits for him to be able to do that. When Sia plays from the start, he is still effective and puts in big hits, but it's not as easy to walk through people.

Best in SL I think you could argue with Ellis, Manu etc, there are alot of candidates out there for best SR, never mind best Forward?

I have other options, of course I do. Just none that I intend to make use of just to please some on here (namely the bitter ones that haven't got a clue what has gone on and are just dying to know so spend all their time dismissing any other peoples opinions as if it didn't come from them it can't possibly be true).................

Last year in my opinion Hock was the best forward in SL, in years gone by definitely not as you rightly say and this season maybe not with poorer players round him and Ellis coming to SL. Last year only Westwood ran him close IMO.

So these "rumours" aren't just rumours any more? They are "FACT"?

Forgive me for waiting to see some proof before I believe it.

And isn't the same in reverse true?
Aren't 1 or 2 posters who are saying this rumour is true spending all their time dismissing other people's opinions because they haven't got a clue what has gone and in truth only believing what they've been told which is a "rumour"?

Aren't they being argumentative by continually defending these rumours without actually coming up with one shred of evidence to explain to others why they should believe them?
As far as I can see that makes them the argumentative ones as they are the ones continually defending a situation/someone whilst not explaining why?

We all know your stance on the situation and as you continually like to tell everyone those defending hock know more than everyone else.
Why don't you guys sleep well safe in the knowledge that you know the truth and let everyone else get on with it?
If as you say the club crumbles and other players leave etc you can come back really smug and smile to yourself safe in the knowledge that it was everyone else living in fantasy cuckoo land.

PS

I've heard the rumours building over many many months as well. I've also heard other ones about hocks "social" circles being a problem again and again. Which ones do I believe?
I too wouldn't be naming names and posting or PMing people about them but I also wouldn't be coming on here telling people that "I know something that you don't" when I couldn't back it up with any evidence!

If they are true then yeah I do have a touch of sympathy, but to be honest not nearly enough to make me question the clubs decision to get rid.

Half a dozen different things have 'gone on', according to various people in your camp. You guys aren't even in agreement with each other about what's happened.

If there is even a shred of truth in what you say, it will come out in due course - but I won't be holding my breath, because every time you guys reiterate your version of events, I hear a different one from someone else.

This idea about bitter people dismissing opinions would hilarious if it wasn't so sad (like you don't do it!), but I'll tell you something, I'm not going to stand back and see one or two posters persistently damaging the Wigan club, whether they intend to or not, by spreading malicious allegations ... purely on the basis that they think they know something because a disgraced player and/or his mates have taken them into confidence.

Do Cruncher and Juke believe everything the club says as fact? or could it be the club puts a spin on anything it publishes and sometimes NEVER publishes the truth depending on who is involved.

Yes, chinese whispers does occur but is it not better sometimes to be open and honest and move forward? Surely the truth lies between the chinese whispers and the Wigan forum SS?

Yes I'm completely brainwashed

I'm getting help for it, and with some luck one day I too may not believe statements made by a profesional run organisation and in turn will start to believe everything I'm told in the pub or over the Internet!

So if you believe in being open and honest why not ask the posters claiming to be in the know to be open and honest?
After all the lies lance Armstrong as come out with I'm beginning to wonder whether he actually did walk on the moon or not!



Maybe the conspiracy theorists are onto something?

My last post on this Hock/Wane issue.

I have on one hand, one of the most damning, detailed statements i have ever read about a sportsman's actions by his club, outlining many issues since he came back from a 2 year ban for using a banned substance.

On the other hand we have unsubstantiated rumour.

Now, we all like a little gossip, but having received a PM from Vectrabeast, i'm still non the wiser, and the PM actually says nothing more than has been alluded to on the forum. As vectrabeast and last Son Of Wigan are now resorting to personal insults, rather than saying ANYTHING of any value, i feel its time to stop asking them for clarification, and leave them to their beliefs. If they have information that you feel is so important that you are prepared to make suggestive posts on a forum about it, you should be prepared to forward said info to the club to take the necessary action.

Every Wigan fan over the years has heard various rumours about players or the club itself, whether it's from a mate in the pub / a steward at the DW / a relative of a player....etc!

The way I see it:

Category A source: The player or Club Employees actually involved in a rumour, in this case Hock, Wane and IL.

Category B source: immediate family of Category A source.

Category C source: First team squad players and staff. Friends of Category A & B source.

Category D source: Non staff at DW (stewards), Staff and players from other clubs.

Category E source: Pub/work rumours.

Now anything over Category B I would take with a pinch of salt. I've already heard these same rumours twice (Cat E) and there's discrepancies in both stories!!

As you can see embellishment has already started to happen!

I haven't posted what I believe. Nor what I've been told, because there are several different versions.

But to address the main point, it's difficult to seriously say that the truth lies somewhere between the club's official statement and .... nothing!

Maybe Wigan RL are sometimes economical with the truth, and maybe they aren't - I'm sure there are many issues they regularly deal with that are none of our business. But I'm never, ever going to attach credibility to quite damaging stories about Wigan RL posted on the basis of "I'm not going to say anything, you'll just have to trust me" and "believe what you like, but you're basically naive and argumentative for not taking my non-statements at face-value".

It seems highly likely that people are not posting what they have been told because such statements are libelous. Which makes it even more difficult to take those posters seriously. For clarification, you libel someone when the negative statement you've made about them is FALSE.

Now, as regards the posters who are adamant that something really is rotten at the heart of Wigan RL, the best thing they can do is stop trying to tease people about it, and sit back and wait (which is what seems to have happened on the other message board, where the thread in question has now disappeared - I wonder why?).

If it all comes out in the wash, as they say, I'll happily retract my doubts. If it doesn't, we'll know the other party were conned.

I'd also say the majority of posters probably first heard of this rumour from a certain poster on Wigan fans site. So regardless of where he obtained the info from most on here are swearing blind truth on a story they've heard 2nd, 3rd even 4th hand.

The problem with the lower 'category' sources is their desire to be the news-breaker, to prove their status as someone in the know.

They will literally regurgitate any rumour - as has been proven - in the vain hope that it's true - "I told you so!". Each time the rumour is passed on, people add their own little details and exaggerations too it!

I think those with knowledge or at what they think is true do not post for fear of reprisal rather than libel. The name of the third party has not been posted for that reason. I think we can all agree that if that third party has any connection with somebody at Wigan RLFC then it would be a sad day for the club. Certainly not a situation Ian Lenagan would tolerate.

I can only repeat what I said a day or two ago.

If people think IL hasn't heard this rumour, they must be barking ... every man and his dog, certainly all those employed at Wigan RL, have heard it.

First of all I haven't come with an attitude of I know something that you don't, I've merely stated that I believe I know the truth of what has gone on. I'm sure that several others do as well but I haven't questioned them saying you can't possibly know as they may know the same as me. What I do have an issue with the attitude in which some on here try to knock you down and belittle anything you say, my stance is simple, I believe I know what has gone on and with that in mind I won't be openly criticising hock like others have on here and I remain free to have my opinion on how I believe those in charge have dealt with it. As far as I'm concerned that's all I need say on the matter

Which is why I posted back on page 39

First of all I haven't spread any malicious allegations. Just declared that I believe I know what has gone on, if you don't believe me I don't care.

Second of all I don't have a camp on here I speak purely for myself.


The last I will say on the matter is that I believe I know what has gone on, I can't see it coming anytime soon as hock distancing himself from the club will probably be the end of it. I'll also continue to freely and openly give my opinions on things as long as I see fit without the "clique" dismissing or trying to belittle me

I have stated quite clear from the word go that I wouldn't be going into detail and that I am happy for people to leave me to my beliefs

Now where are these personal insults you speak of??

Just so that I understand your position.

Do you think IL knows the full facts?
Do you think he has spoken to Wane, Hock, Radlinski, and some of the players?
If he did was this prior to issuing his statement?

i find this totally bizarre. He has clearly outlined his 'position' on numerous occasions let you are looking for more information?
There's nothing more to say on the topic. Any more highlights the repetitive nature of this forum.
It's clear posters have said all they can on the matter.

The rumours do suggest Ian Lenagan does not know what has happened and was left angry by the refusal of Gareth Hock and Shaun Wane now to divulge what happened. Ian Lenagan although he has sold is company is still reliant upon other employees to honestly inform him of what is happening. Perhaps Ian Lenagan was better with a Chief Executive such as Mick Hogan and Joe Lydon before him? Shame the fans forums ceased.