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| Quote ="moto748"It's wrong, though, isn't it, whoever benefits? It's contrary to the spirit of the game, and should be stopped.'"
Agree 100%
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"It won't matter, there's a reserves round the same weekend as the International and that WILL count for both Knowles and Dudson, and anybody else for that matter whose suspension falls on that weekend
I don't agree with it but it's always been the case and I'm sure we will have benefitted in the past, as Joe Westerman did earlier in the season.'"
we got it refused last year for Elllis's ban
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Welsby wasn’t being held by 2 other players, Smithies hasn’t been cautioned for it before and he hadn’t ruled a player out of the game for 6 months previously. That’s before we take in to account the 12 month injury caused ‘this time’.
Other than that, it’s pretty much like for like.
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Welsby wasn’t being held by 2 other players, Smithies hasn’t been cautioned for it before and he hadn’t ruled a player out of the game for 6 months previously. That’s before we take in to account the 12 month injury caused ‘this time’.
Other than that, it’s pretty much like for like.
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| Quote ="NickyKiss"Welsby wasn’t being held by 2 other players, Smithies hasn’t been cautioned for it before and he hadn’t ruled a player out of the game for 6 months previously. That’s before we take in to account the 12 month injury caused ‘this time’.
Other than that, it’s pretty much like for like.'"
When has Knowles been charged for a hip drop tackle before? He may have been but the McGilivray one he certainly wasn't. Watching that video there are three in the tackle and Lussick seems to force Knowles over.
Just find it strange that a tackle that is under such scrutiny for being dangerous can attract a four match difference. Or is it just the injury? If so that seems odd as surely we should punish tackles that risk injury not wait until an injury then punish them more severely.
I'm not saying he didn't deserve a ban, just wonder what the 3/4 match difference between other recent hip drop tackles is all about - it's quite a gap!
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| I know Gus Gould divides opinion and his arrogance can be irritating but I'd encourage everyone to listen to the latest 6 tackles with Gus podcast where tackling technique is discussed - its very interesting.
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"When has Knowles been charged for a hip drop tackle before? He may have been but the McGilivray one he certainly wasn't. Watching that video there are three in the tackle and Lussick seems to force Knowles over.
Just find it strange that a tackle that is under such scrutiny for being dangerous can attract a four match difference. Or is it just the injury? If so that seems odd as surely we should punish tackles that risk injury not wait until an injury then punish them more severely.
I'm not saying he didn't deserve a ban, just wonder what the 3/4 match difference between other recent hip drop tackles is all about - it's quite a gap!'"
Presumed the McGillvary one was cautioned and it’s absolutely staggering if it wasn’t. I also thought I read yesterday he’d had a warning for it this season but I’ve not got Knowles charge sheet to hand (can’t afford the paper) . I’m not defending Smithies, he is possibly lucky to get one match and next time it should be many more because he’s had a warning now (same for Batchelor).
Knowles ruling a fellow England player out for 6 months should’ve been warning enough for him. The farcical successful appeal for seemingly trying to twist a players arm out of place should’ve been another or he then could’ve took heed of the 8 times he’d been looked at by the disciplinary this season but it just continues happening and it looks like things have caught up with him a bit (although granted he doesn’t miss the combined 18 months he put McGillvary and Cooper out for).
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| Quote ="hengirl"When he was helped off you couldn't help but feel it was a bad one the plus side he looks a fit as a butchers whippet so I've no doubt he can get through this but as other have pointed out it's not just the initial time to recover its refinding his form and given hjs age it may be time for to call it a day.
Shame really he was turning in to shrewd signing by the club'"
It's really bad news for him, always felt he was an outstanding forward. Just not eye-catching or blockbuster like walmsley etc
If a forward can come back from this at his age I think he is probably one of the few in super League with the mentality and discipline to do so....when Currie king Paul wood and a lot of other players have come back from a bad injury they have played with a fear for a period until they trusted it again...I don't think it will take cooper a year to play without that fear.
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Quote ="FearTheVee"I'm not saying he didn't deserve a ban, just wonder what the 3/4 match difference between other recent hip drop tackles is all about - it's quite a gap!'"
The Smithies tackle is reckless but he drops from the players hip and is the only man in the tackle. Knowles drops from full height in a 3 man tackle, even before the injury its a more dangerous challenge.
Also
From - https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/how-mike ... nal-72829/
The RFL’s mitigating and aggravating factors read
“Injury can be used by the MRP (and consequently by the ORT) when considering appropriate grading in order to assess the degree of force and as an indication of the point of contact by a player when effecting a tackle. Foe example, if a player sustain a serious injury which results in a period of time away from the game as a result of misconduct, this may mean the grading is increased.”
Add to that Knowles previous record, it's not that surprising he's got himself a longer sit down.
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Quote ="FearTheVee"I'm not saying he didn't deserve a ban, just wonder what the 3/4 match difference between other recent hip drop tackles is all about - it's quite a gap!'"
The Smithies tackle is reckless but he drops from the players hip and is the only man in the tackle. Knowles drops from full height in a 3 man tackle, even before the injury its a more dangerous challenge.
Also
From - https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/how-mike ... nal-72829/
The RFL’s mitigating and aggravating factors read
“Injury can be used by the MRP (and consequently by the ORT) when considering appropriate grading in order to assess the degree of force and as an indication of the point of contact by a player when effecting a tackle. Foe example, if a player sustain a serious injury which results in a period of time away from the game as a result of misconduct, this may mean the grading is increased.”
Add to that Knowles previous record, it's not that surprising he's got himself a longer sit down.
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Quote ="spartakmixtapes"The Smithies tackle is reckless but he drops from the players hip and is the only man in the tackle. Knowles drops from full height in a 3 man tackle, even before the injury its a more dangerous challenge.
Also
From - https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/how-mike ... nal-72829/
The RFL’s mitigating and aggravating factors read
“Injury can be used by the MRP (and consequently by the ORT) when considering appropriate grading in order to assess the degree of force and as an indication of the point of contact by a player when effecting a tackle. Foe example, if a player sustain a serious injury which results in a period of time away from the game as a result of misconduct, this may mean the grading is increased.”
Add to that Knowles previous record, it's not that surprising he's got himself a longer sit down.'"
Thanks for that - didn’t realise injury was taken into account. Seems a bit odd to me as it can be complete random luck whether dangerous play results in an injury but fair enough - rules are rules.
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Quote ="spartakmixtapes"The Smithies tackle is reckless but he drops from the players hip and is the only man in the tackle. Knowles drops from full height in a 3 man tackle, even before the injury its a more dangerous challenge.
Also
From - https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/how-mike ... nal-72829/
The RFL’s mitigating and aggravating factors read
“Injury can be used by the MRP (and consequently by the ORT) when considering appropriate grading in order to assess the degree of force and as an indication of the point of contact by a player when effecting a tackle. Foe example, if a player sustain a serious injury which results in a period of time away from the game as a result of misconduct, this may mean the grading is increased.”
Add to that Knowles previous record, it's not that surprising he's got himself a longer sit down.'"
Thanks for that - didn’t realise injury was taken into account. Seems a bit odd to me as it can be complete random luck whether dangerous play results in an injury but fair enough - rules are rules.
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Thanks for that - didn’t realise injury was taken into account. Seems a bit odd to me as it can be complete random luck whether dangerous play results in an injury but fair enough - rules are rules.'"
Agree where injury is taken into account as that can happen at any point. Any form of strain / tear / ACL / MCL could occur whilst a player is running and no-one anywhere near them
if we take head high tackles too in a similar way to how boxers can be described. Player X can take a hit, so is hit high and thus no reaction, and probably laughs if off, however Player Y has a glass jaw, and suffers concussion from a lesser challenge, but that player could now be banned for more games than the other player
i get there is always going to be an element of subjectivity with regards to intent etc, and i dont think it has been too often that any of us have actually seen a player go out with the intention of deliberately injuring a fellow player (perhaps Les Boyd in origin ), and thus taking the injury into account or not is going to leave the disciplinary open to criticism over virtually every decision
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Thanks for that - didn’t realise injury was taken into account. Seems a bit odd to me as it can be complete random luck whether dangerous play results in an injury but fair enough - rules are rules.'"
It doesn’t mean that they are good rules or even if the rules are interpreted correctly by the match review panel. For me, the grading system should be dispensed with if you have a repeat offender with a second, third etc., offence attracting a greater penalty than the previous.
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Thanks for that - didn’t realise injury was taken into account. Seems a bit odd to me as it can be complete random luck whether dangerous play results in an injury but fair enough - rules are rules.'"
it shouldnt be brought into it fore that exact reason
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| Can Wigan de-register Cooper for 2023 and free up cap space? What is the latest guidance?
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| Quote ="easyWire"Can Wigan de-register Cooper for 2023 and free up cap space? What is the latest guidance?'"
Not sure but the biggest issue it feels like we face, is us not having any quota spots available and we need to move somebody on, to get one in, which then still leagues us a player down. It’s difficult to see how a decent English forward becomes available (but then I suppose I’d have thought that last year and then we got Cooper himself).
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| The point about the extent of injury being taken into account is this
1) If you recklessly tackle someone in a dangerous manner then you are punished for taking the “risk” but luckily no injury caused so take this short ban as a warning about your technique/attitude
2) If you tackle as above and a significant injury is caused then that warrants further punishment.
Reckless means you are aware of the risk but take it anyway, it may be considered lucky that no serious injury was caused in scenario 1.
Logically you should probably receive the same severe punishment in 1) as in 2) but I imagine the outcry would be off the scale.
This is my interpretation, not the RFL’s.
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| There’s only so long a repeat offender can drop ‘lucky’ that he doesn’t injure somebody as well. He’s caused 18 months worth of injuries, in the last 6 months, with the same tackle and I believe had a caution in between for the same offence. He’s been looked at 44 times in 5 years by the RFL (great stat from the new Wigan way podcast, that the unbelievably dirty, thuggish, Micky Mac has been looked at 43 times in 15 years). His punishments need to get heavier going forward if he doesn’t change his ways. He is putting players careers at risk.
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| Good discussion, I have felt that bringing the result of the foul play into the ban was risky but, on reflection, it has to be the way. Would there be a legal issue here that the RFL would be liable if this was not the case?
On the specifics of the two incidents, Smithies hits Welsby across the back of the legs so is arguably less serious but deserving of a ban. Knowles fully swings across Cooper's legs (and for that matter, across his own players) so more serious?
Its interesting that the hip drop is now clamped down on and the tip tackle has fallen out of attention, time was any lifting of the hips above the shoulder was a pen or even a yellow. Are the RFL running the risk of having to police it again if a serious injury occurs?
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| Don't know if anyone is interested or if you've moved on, but the minutes from the tribunal are up on the rfl website now, interesting reading.
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| Quote ="Fantastic Mr Cat"Don't know if anyone is interested or if you've moved on, but the minutes from the tribunal are up on the rfl website now, interesting reading.'"
Seems that the tribunal believe he knew exactly what he was doing. I'm guessing this comes from his previous. Not good if true.
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| Quote ="Phuzzy"Seems that the tribunal believe he knew exactly what he was doing. I'm guessing this comes from his previous. Not good if true.'"
If that's the case, then 5 games isn't enough.
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| Quote ="Phuzzy"Seems that the tribunal believe he knew exactly what he was doing. I'm guessing this comes from his previous. Not good if true.'"
Its difficult to say "he knew exactly what he was doing" because its a lazy/desperate tackle technique in that the defender is usually in a beaten position in the tackle and chooses to use his bodyweight rather than strength to bring the player down. If he was doing those tackles in the first quarter of the game you'd have a point but they tend to happen later in games when discipline gets a bit ragged and players start to take short cuts.
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It is quite lengthy
https://www.rugby-league.com/governance ... case=16998
Player plea:
Guilty
Summary of CM's submissions on the Charge / evidence:
Following a Match Review Panel meeting held on 10th April 2023, you are charged with misconduct for a breach of Law 15.1(i) during the above match.
The Panel reviewed an incident which occurred at 1 45 53 Opta footage time of the above match. In the Panel’s opinion you have used your body to apply pressure to the leg of an opponent. The Panel believed that your actions were unnecessary, had the potential to cause injury and are against the true spirit of the game.
In accordance with the RFL’s On Field Sentencing Guidelines, the Panel consider that such offence is a Grade D offence – Dangerous Contact - Defender uses any part of their body forcefully to twist, bend or otherwise apply pressure to the limb or limbs of an opposing player in a way that involves an unacceptable risk of injury to that player.
The normal suspension range for such offence is 2 to 3 matches.
• Match Review Panel reviewed an incident which occurred in the above match.
• The opponent Mr Cooper can be seen to take a carry close to the try line and is contacted by several St Helens players including Mr Knowles.
• The opponent breaks through the initial contact with Mr Knowles who has a hold of his upper body.
• Mr Knowles initially whilst maintaining an upper body grip, keeps his feet on the ground and moves with the opponent.
• The player then takes both his feet off the ground and his body contacts the opponent Mr Cooper leg.
• The opponent is in a vulnerable position.
• Mr Knowles actions are of a reckless nature.
• Opponent leaves the field and cannot bear weight on his leg.
• Grade D due to:
- Highly reckless act of taking both feet off the ground.
- Significant weight of player going through opponent’s leg.
- Opponent is in a vulnerable position and can in no way mitigate for the actions of Mr Knowles.
- Player is solely responsible for his actions.
- A serious injury has occurred in this instance.
Summary of Player's submissions on the Charge / evidence:
Player in attendance alongside Mike Rush (CEO) & Paul Wellens (Head Coach). Player pleads Guilty.
MR explained that the club were unsure if they were appealing the grading as this was the first time they had been involved in a hearing where medical evidence had been supplied, however, in his opinion the tackle was careless and not reckless.
MR believed that the footage showed that when MK puts his hands on the opponents shoulder his body twists, and this along with the contribution of two teammates was instrumental in adding momentum which caused the accident. Rugby League is a contact sport and accidents do happen, but in this instance the actions of MK were careless not reckless.
MK informed the Tribunal that there was never any intention to cause injury to the opponent. They are friends and he was gutted that his actions had resulted in an injury which could take 9-12 months before the opponent can be back in action.
Decision:
Challenging Grading
Reasons for Decision:
The Panel believed that this act was reckless and graded correctly at Grade D. The Panel do not believe that momentum was the reason Mr Knowles feet came off the ground, simply that he took his own feet off the ground causing a significant proportion of his body weight to then go through the leg of his opponent.
Decision On Sanction (where found to have committed Misconduct)
Summary of CM's submissions on the appropriate sanction:
The Match Review Panel have removed the Penalty Notice in this instance due to the opponent sustaining a serious long-term injury where he will be out of the sport for a minimum of 9 months. The Match Review Panel believe while this offence itself is correctly graded as a Grade D; the injury surmounts to the sanction being increased outside of the usual 3 matches Mr Knowles would have received if a Penalty Notice had been issued in this case.
Summary of Player's submissions on the appropriate sanction:
The player says there was no intent to injure the opponent and is remorseful for his actions. The player states he has apologised to his opponent.
Aggravating Factors:
20/03/23 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/09/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/08/22 – High Tackle – 1 match
15/08/22 – Shoulder Charge – 1 match
18/07/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
13/06/22 – Dangerous Contact – 0 matches
04/10/21 – High Tackle – 0 matches
Reasons for Decision:
The Tribunal are entirely satisfied that this was a reckless act. The matter has been referred to them as the Match Review Panel have withdrawn the Penalty Notice due to the injury sustained. The Tribunal agree that this has been graded correctly and these are exceptional circumstances. The Tribunal therefore determine that a 5-match suspension and a fine of £500 fine is appropriate instance.
Suspension:
5 matches
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It is quite lengthy
https://www.rugby-league.com/governance ... case=16998
Player plea:
Guilty
Summary of CM's submissions on the Charge / evidence:
Following a Match Review Panel meeting held on 10th April 2023, you are charged with misconduct for a breach of Law 15.1(i) during the above match.
The Panel reviewed an incident which occurred at 1 45 53 Opta footage time of the above match. In the Panel’s opinion you have used your body to apply pressure to the leg of an opponent. The Panel believed that your actions were unnecessary, had the potential to cause injury and are against the true spirit of the game.
In accordance with the RFL’s On Field Sentencing Guidelines, the Panel consider that such offence is a Grade D offence – Dangerous Contact - Defender uses any part of their body forcefully to twist, bend or otherwise apply pressure to the limb or limbs of an opposing player in a way that involves an unacceptable risk of injury to that player.
The normal suspension range for such offence is 2 to 3 matches.
• Match Review Panel reviewed an incident which occurred in the above match.
• The opponent Mr Cooper can be seen to take a carry close to the try line and is contacted by several St Helens players including Mr Knowles.
• The opponent breaks through the initial contact with Mr Knowles who has a hold of his upper body.
• Mr Knowles initially whilst maintaining an upper body grip, keeps his feet on the ground and moves with the opponent.
• The player then takes both his feet off the ground and his body contacts the opponent Mr Cooper leg.
• The opponent is in a vulnerable position.
• Mr Knowles actions are of a reckless nature.
• Opponent leaves the field and cannot bear weight on his leg.
• Grade D due to:
- Highly reckless act of taking both feet off the ground.
- Significant weight of player going through opponent’s leg.
- Opponent is in a vulnerable position and can in no way mitigate for the actions of Mr Knowles.
- Player is solely responsible for his actions.
- A serious injury has occurred in this instance.
Summary of Player's submissions on the Charge / evidence:
Player in attendance alongside Mike Rush (CEO) & Paul Wellens (Head Coach). Player pleads Guilty.
MR explained that the club were unsure if they were appealing the grading as this was the first time they had been involved in a hearing where medical evidence had been supplied, however, in his opinion the tackle was careless and not reckless.
MR believed that the footage showed that when MK puts his hands on the opponents shoulder his body twists, and this along with the contribution of two teammates was instrumental in adding momentum which caused the accident. Rugby League is a contact sport and accidents do happen, but in this instance the actions of MK were careless not reckless.
MK informed the Tribunal that there was never any intention to cause injury to the opponent. They are friends and he was gutted that his actions had resulted in an injury which could take 9-12 months before the opponent can be back in action.
Decision:
Challenging Grading
Reasons for Decision:
The Panel believed that this act was reckless and graded correctly at Grade D. The Panel do not believe that momentum was the reason Mr Knowles feet came off the ground, simply that he took his own feet off the ground causing a significant proportion of his body weight to then go through the leg of his opponent.
Decision On Sanction (where found to have committed Misconduct)
Summary of CM's submissions on the appropriate sanction:
The Match Review Panel have removed the Penalty Notice in this instance due to the opponent sustaining a serious long-term injury where he will be out of the sport for a minimum of 9 months. The Match Review Panel believe while this offence itself is correctly graded as a Grade D; the injury surmounts to the sanction being increased outside of the usual 3 matches Mr Knowles would have received if a Penalty Notice had been issued in this case.
Summary of Player's submissions on the appropriate sanction:
The player says there was no intent to injure the opponent and is remorseful for his actions. The player states he has apologised to his opponent.
Aggravating Factors:
20/03/23 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/09/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/08/22 – High Tackle – 1 match
15/08/22 – Shoulder Charge – 1 match
18/07/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
13/06/22 – Dangerous Contact – 0 matches
04/10/21 – High Tackle – 0 matches
Reasons for Decision:
The Tribunal are entirely satisfied that this was a reckless act. The matter has been referred to them as the Match Review Panel have withdrawn the Penalty Notice due to the injury sustained. The Tribunal agree that this has been graded correctly and these are exceptional circumstances. The Tribunal therefore determine that a 5-match suspension and a fine of £500 fine is appropriate instance.
Suspension:
5 matches
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Player Coach | 5511 | No Team Selected |
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| Quote ="spartakmixtapes"Its difficult to say "he knew exactly what he was doing" because its a lazy/desperate tackle technique in that the defender is usually in a beaten position in the tackle and chooses to use his bodyweight rather than strength to bring the player down. If he was doing those tackles in the first quarter of the game you'd have a point but they tend to happen later in games when discipline gets a bit ragged and players start to take short cuts.'"
I think the tribunal's point is, lazy technique or not, he knew what he was doing when he lifted his legs and that he was playing roulette with another player's welfare. They didn't accept that it was momentum that caused him to lift his legs but rather it was a deliberate act. They're not implying that he deliberately tried to injure Cooper. Just that he knew the risks when he took that action but did it anyway. That's why they called it "reckless" rather than "careless".
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International Star | 133 | No Team Selected |
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Aug 2012 | 12 years | |
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| Quote ="Phuzzy"I think the tribunal's point is, lazy technique or not, he knew what he was doing when he lifted his legs and that he was playing roulette with another player's welfare. They didn't accept that it was momentum that caused him to lift his legs but rather it was a deliberate act. They're not implying that he deliberately tried to injure Cooper. Just that he knew the risks when he took that action but did it anyway. That's why they called it "reckless" rather than "careless".'"
I agree, just think we need to be careful not to infer premeditation.
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