I don't see the similarity. Goulding was a victim of Noble's pick his favourites in any position selection policy and fell out of favour after a poor game v Leeds (when all the team were poor but he is the one who lost his place) virtually never to be seen again. He was also injured for most of one of those seasons wasn't he? He is also a natural centre. With Hughes it is simply just the same kind of compromise the team was forced into when Gleeson left and we had Joel in the centres. Yes it works most of the time but sometimes it doesn't and that us usually when up against a proper centre in the games that count.



But we won a cup and a grand final in no small measure due to having some big names in the side such as Hoffman, Lima and Finch. Success in 2010 and 2011 didn't come on the back of a side like we are about to put out in 2013. I I also reckon despite the league win a big reason we didn't win either of those trophies again in 2012 was down to poor coaching by Wane and I think people are ignoring the difference in coach as well as the squad. I have been far from convinced by Wane this season and he has as much to prove as any of the new signings such as Green IMO.

You also don't think this team restructuring is part of a master plan do you? IL promised year on year improvement and I for one was looking for the squad to evolve based on this not get dismantled. We have been just as unstable in terms of a settled team under IL as any previous seasons and next year shows we are at it again so I think any comparisons with the Maurice era are actually little different.



For me its the pack and the coach that will determine how we go. The pack looks much poorer. Wane has to be a lot cleverer in his selections and not believe his own propaganda by which I mean doing things convincing himself a player with one SL game under his belt is the right choice for a semi-final at full back. Sometimes the more conventional approach is the right one. I also think if he continues with the full contact training we will fade away by the end of the season once again and that would happen even if we had retained the players who have left.

For most of the season Wane exceeded my expectations, by the end he had just about lived up to them.

To be fair though I've seen players who are considered natural centres who have looking unconvincing against 'proper centres' in games that count. In fact young centres generally have lots of flaws in their game so why would Hughes be any exception? Stefan Marsh was considered an out and out centre but he looked less convincing than Hughes but I'd hazard a guess that if Marsh was still at the club you'd be all for his selection at centre, regardless of whether he's the best option purely because you want someone you consider 'a centre' at centre.

Tomkins wasn't a natural fullback, he had flaws in his game and still does but he's adapted to the role over time. The only way we really got to see how effective Tomkins was at fullback was by giving him a chance and he proved himself to be the best available option.

Versatility isn't a bad thing. It's not like Hughes is going to become a terrible player if he's played at centre. If he plays there and is absolutely awful he'll be dropped and Thornley will play instead. In fact it's not even guaranteed that Hughes will be first choice centre as both he and Thornley will get an opportunity in pre-season.

There's nothing wrong with finding out about a players versatility and in young players it can often be beneficial to give them chances in different positions. Playing on the wing certainly seems to have helped Goulding.

Hughes has only started 6 games at centre for the first team. In Goulding's first 6 starts at Wigan he was far from convincing! (Admittedly the team was garbage). In many games later than that he looked unconvincing.

From what I've seen of Hughes at centre he's had a couple of disappointing games, a couple of very good games and four games where he looked like a decent stand in. I think it's worth giving him a few more opportunities at centre to see whether he's the best option.

Sorry but am I the only one that expected no silveware at all last season? Given the losses of quality, experienced players like Deacon, Coley, Hoffman & Joel I definitely didn't! I thought we'd have finished 3rd at best. Wane exceeded my expectations and I think the attack for most of the season was better than we'd seen under Maguire. It was the crunch clashes where I thought some of our experienced "big name" players didn't perform as expected & really stifled our attack by being too predictable. Hence me not being too bothered about our lack of "big" signings. We've signed lads that have a lot to prove & I think they'll deliver

It's a natural progression for some great players from wing, to centre, to stand off, to loose forward.

I thought you only had Hoffman, Lima and Finch in 2011 (and 2012 for the last two), not 2010. If anything the 2010 side was less special on paper.

Correct. The 2010 GF winning side was as follows -

S Tomkins; Goulding, Gleeson, Carmont, Richards; Deacon, Leuluai; Fielden, McIlorum, Coley; J Tomkins, Hansen, O'Loughlin -- Prescott, Riddell, Feka, Farrell

Compared to this years likely team -

Tomkins (Better than he was 2 years ago)
Charnley (Better winger than Goulding)
Goulding (Actually had a better season than Gleeson ever had at Wigan)
[iHughes[/i (Not as good as Carmont)
[iRichards[/i (Not as good as he used to be - still a decent player)
Green (We won't know until he plays, but Deacon was past his best in 2010)
[iSmith[/i (Can't see him being better than Leuluai but stronger kicking game)
Mossop (Has every chance of being better than Fielden was in 2010)
McIlorum (Much better than he was in 2010)
[iLauaki[/i (We'll gloss over this one)
Hansen (Better than he was in 2010)
Hock (Better than Joel Tomkins)
O'Loughlin (Just as good as ever if not better)

Prescott (Should be better than he was in 2010)
Taylor (Should offer a more balanced game than Feka)
Farrell (Better than he was in 2010)
[iTuson[/i (Someone will have to explain the point of his 15 minute spells because I can't understand it)

Bold is where we're stronger - plain text is where it's uncertain and italic is where we're weaker.

On the £500k and where has it gone. One name missing was Roberts who was rumoured to be on a tidy wedge.
We have Green, Taylor, Smith and Thornley coming in and I don't think the first three would have been cheap or in the bargain style of signing. Thornley will probably be on a decent wage too.
Any surplus money will have gone on incremental increases to players already under contract. Can't imagine there being too much spare cash available after those have been taken into account.

Do you think so? Honestly?

Green, Taylor Smith Thornley would command the same money as Fielden, Roberts, Lululai, Finch, J Tomkins (all the preceeding 4 were on books before he left).

You have a different interpretation than I do if that's the case.

I think you're being very kind to Hansen and O'Loughlin there, I would say they both had their best seasons to date that year. Hansen was doing his usual hard graft in defence but also running some great lines and making himself a threat in attack. O'Loughlin seemed to be more of an attacking threat also but I'd accept he's not much different. Prescott and Farrell are debatable too. Prescott's effectiveness depends largely on whether he can steer clear of injury and keep hold of the ball, Farrell's not really any different to 2010 as far as I've noticed

What you are failing to appreciate is that it was the tactics that Madge brought to SL that had more to do with the 2010 GF than the playing personnel.

That's not, of course, to say that the players didn't perform, they did, and did it well, but imo the main difference between Wigan and the rest of SL then was the introduction of new "unusual" tactics......... Ask John Kear!

No but you also have to understand that there have been upgrades of contracts and the signing of twelve of the best U16 side I have ever seen. There is obviously still some money available (from Wanes comments) but it has to be spent wisely on the right player(s) and that depends on availability.

Nothing wrong with strengthening the depth of a side but every side needs gamebreakers. At the moment we have Sam............

Whereas all the other squads in SL are jam-packed with gamebreakers arent they...

Well, Cas have one...

<edit> wait... sorry, wasn't wearing my specs.. I thought you'd said "jawbreakers"

I wouldn't be at all worried about Jack Hughes at 4, Leeds have blagged two GF wins with Ablett at centre.

Quite, just get Hughes to run at Lee Briers.

This is very true. Madge got a virtually identical side to that which Noble had in his last season to go up several notches. Same personnel bar one and a transformation in terms of performances. If ever you wanted evidence of the impact and influence a coach has on a side Madge's arrival was it. You have more evidence of this based on our 2012 season. Wane inherited a CC winning side from Madge decided he knew better and proved he didn't (to everyone but himself I suspect).

All talk of the squad and the relatives merits of Green v Finch etc is just ignoring the coaching and how that will influence our chances.

I do honestly think most of the SC monies will now have been allocated.
Green, Taylor, Smith & Thornley in.
The way to stay under the cap is to provide an increase each year as players leave at the end of each season and their salaries can be re-allocated.
I am surmising that this practice goes on as players won't get their max payments from a deal until the last year or couple of years perhaps.
Having said that we won't be up to the max cap limit as suggestions have been made another signing may arrive for 2013.
IL has always said he will leave a small amount between our salary spend and the cap limit.

Wane lost four influential players in Hoffman, Coley, Deacon and Tomkins from that CC winning side. Therefore the comparison with Madge joining in 2010 is flawed to say the least.

What you suspect is neither here nor there, but this little bit of add-on mockery does you no credit.

You know nothing about Shaun Wane's state of mind, whether he's learned from his errors, whether he's now adjusting his training and tactics, whether he's reconsidering his team-selections, or whatever.

We're all disappointed that we didn't win a major trophy last season, but to completely discount the fact that Wigan finished first in the league shows a pretty selective memory. That isn't good enough for Wigan - I'd agree. But it isn't like Shaun Wane was an absolute disaster as a coach.

I don't recall where you stood when Wane was first appointed, but I can't help wondering if you'd have been part of the inevitable chorus of disapproval if IL had ignored a young Brit to appoint another unknown Aussie.

The bitching about Shaun Wane is interesting. He was far from perfect in his first season, that is true. Perhaps he was a little over ambitious in wanting to win everything (but isn't that what coaches are supposed to do?).
Still, we came top of the league, missed out on a trip to Old Trafford in a game that we really should have won...yet we lost a close home playoff game against Leeds under Maguire too, as well as a challenge cup game. Wane isn't the first coach to lose an important game to Leeds by a close margin.
We also got beaten by Leeds in the cup semi final where Shaun Wane definitely didn't drop Sinfield's kick, didn't let the ball roll out of play for a 40/20, didn't drop the ball under little pressure in his own half, didn't get outjumped for a kick despite being 6 foot 4.

Sure, it wasn't a great season when it came down to winning trophies but it's not like we were that far away. Of course the loss of several high profile players is great news for those that want to blame Wane for any sort of failure because they are much likely to get what they desire.

Add in winning the LLS which we hadn't done the year before, and getting just as far in the playoffs.

ETA: Note to self always read right to the end before saying the same as everyone else

You need to pay attention to what he says and you might gain an insight. He said during last season that he knew how he wanted to do things and he would keep doing it that way even if it was wrong - I paraphrase as I don't have the exact quote to hand but those were the words he used. On his recent trip to Australia he said what he saw convinced him Wigan were doing it right. He also moved away from how Madge did things so it doesn't take genius to work out he is going to do it his way come what may.

So before you get all sanctimonious perhaps you might ask what lies behind someone's opinion?



I don't give a stuff where coaches come from provided they can do the job and I will tell you exactly where I stood before Wane was given it.

I was all for it because I assumed we would get continuity from Madge to him. If you search back you will find me making this exact point as we all wondered who our new coach would be. I thought the silver cloud in the lining of Madge leaving was Wane would carry on where he left off having spent two years learning the ropes off the best coach we have had since John Monie. I never imagined he was going to decide he knew better though my suspicions were first aroused when he said pre-season he thought he could improve the side in certain ways as he gave the distinct impression he disagreed with what had gone before under Madge.

It's funny really because Wane was exactly the same after Noble left and before Madge joined. You could tell he was having to bite his lip in the interviews not to come out and basically say Noble was pants. I pointed that out at the time as well. He wasn't wrong either but there is a difference between disagreeing with a coach who was unsuccessful at the club and one who was.

So this says to me Wane has had his own ideas on how to do the main job for a long time. There is nothing wrong with that - [uif you are the one with the right ideas [/uand are no too stubborn to learn from your mistakes but I am genuinely convinced Wane thinks he is 100% correct in his approach.

But you don't know it for a fact, so stop posting as if you do.

I'll say it again, we were all disappointed with the outcome of last season, but it wasn't so disastrous that most of us immediately decided to go head-hunting the coach after only one year in charge, during the course of which he was missing a couple of key players, and yet still managed to finish top of the league.