Leeds are the champions, no arguments about that. They performed the best in the post-season.

I was answering the comment that they don't need to improve, they finished fifth during the regular season, they were the fifth best team. They need to improve.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) whichever way you would like to take it, you are the only person who has responded to this and I'm sure a lot have felt the need to bite.

It may be an irrelevant comment in your mind, but the fact of the matter is that if it wasn't for the ambition of Wigan Rugby League, then we wouldn't be in the position as a sport that we are today.

Imagine if during 1988 to 1995, Championships and Challenge Cups were spread out evenly? IMO we wouldn't have had the recognition as a sport as we did back then if this was the case. Wigan's dominance may have had an adverse affect in terms of the Salary Cap, but in reality it showed that with ambition and a vision a team can succeed. Why should the bigger clubs be punished because small clubs can't keep up?

I thought that you were punished though ?
You were clearly spending money which the club couldn't afford in order to keep on wining those trophies en-mass were you not?
Did not the sale of Central Park pay for the shear exuberance shown during these years?

A fact that since the salary cap has been introduced Wigan have not been as successful due to the fact that they can't spend that kind of money
"living their dream" and that have to abide by the same salary constraints of the other clubs.

Going back to the Rhino's, I find it incredible that under these rules that a side can actually win 3 GF's in a row, It is unprecedented and probably won't happen again for a very long time.

Points to address:

1) If, during 1988 to 1995, Championships and Challenge Cups were spread out evenly there would have no need to introduce a salary cap at all.

2) To have an 'honest opinion' that all of the sports recognition throughout Wigan's 'Pay to Win' period was solely down to the success of said club is not only farcical but extremely arrogant - That's like suggesting that RL is only presently being recognised as a sport at the moment because Leeds are currently in a vein of good form!

3) Your arrogance to believe that only a 'big club' such as Wigan could have purchased a prolonged run of success before nearly bankrupting itself is laughable. In reality any club could have been as stupid a Wigan and pushed themselves to the brink of financial non existence but Wigan was the only one daft enough to actually do it. You may have had an unprecedented run of success but look at what it has cost the club.

4) The salary cap does not 'punish bigger clubs' at all, it prevents them from being daft enough to think that they can spend money they don't have and end up not being a 'bigger club' or in fact a club at all.

if that was true no club could go into administration....oh hang on a minute

We went into financial meltdown due to the new stand costing far more than was budgeted due to all the issues it run into, bear in mind Leeds spent more than us over this period but had far less success.

Which of the 'bigger clubs' has gone into administration while we've had the salary cap?

I think I said "... spend money they don't have".

The salary cap was brought in for all clubs.....to stop them spending more money they dont have. Doesnt work does it....

I know this - but this isn't the point I was addressing.

Coventry Warrior! said that the salary cap punished 'bigger clubs', you mentioned administration, so once again I ask which of the bigger clubs has gone into administration since the introduction of the salary cap?

Those clubs that have gone into administration can be looked upon as collateral damage with a 'greater good' approach for the sport as a whole.

They play-offs aren’t post season, they are part of the season, Leeds finished first last year, not fifth. The league table doesn’t include all fixtures nor the importance of them.

Whilst it would undoubtedly be nice to improve our record last year conclusively proved we don’t need to.

It does also stop them spending money they do have.

The Salary Cap as it is, is a farce which doesn’t make sense and is counter-poductive.

This, I've always thought of Superleague to be like the champions league qualifiers, which you then move onto the knockout stage. Would anyone argue that qualifying 1st in your group is more of an achievement than finishing 2nd and winning the CL outright? Obviously it's not like for like as their are less teams in each group, but the principle is similar.

stopped reading there

Why not? Too many words for you to comprehend in one go...words of more than two syllables making your head hurt....or just that old Wigan arrogance that prompted this thread and still pervades it.

You may not like it, and indeed it's not a perfect analogy, but the weekly rounds are the qualifying section of the Superleague competition determining who wins the first stage and who gains advantage going into the second stage. In this sense it's not dissimilar[i in principle[/i to many two-stage competitions including the Champions League.

no, just that it's garbage.

judging by the rest of your post, it's a common theme in this thread.

Which is exactly the sort of arrogant, juvenile and unreasoned response I was expecting. Congratulations. You have still managed to say nothing that adds anything of substance to this argument.

Seeing as they were champions they don't need to improve. They were fifth at a particular point in time during the season but finished first, we were first for some of the season but finished fourth. I know which one I'd choose.

They still need to improve though.
Champion quality showed through when it really mattered but overall the Rhinos were below par for much of the season.
Expectations remain high at Headingley (at least higher than 5th in league ladder). We've always been a difficult bunch to please.

Playoffs are post season in terms of the league campaign given not all teams can qualify.

I personally prefer the league campaign as the definitive measure of the best team accounting for medium term variations in form, playing conditions, influence of injuries and an even fixture list played home and away. However all clubs were aware of how champions can be crowned at the start of the season and Leeds took advantage by timing their form to perfection. Whilst I still think Warrington were the best side in 2011 overall (even accounting for an uneven 27th fixture), Leeds fulfil the criteria of champions whether I like it or not.

It's all about what matters at the end though so I really don't see how you can improve. Granted it's nice to be as high as possible before the play-off but it's considerably less of an advantage given the awful top-8 system we now play with. Under the current system the team finishing say 4th could lose a game and still make it to the GF, but the team finishing 1st could lose a game and not make it. Bonkers.

it's hardly an argument sweetie

I'd rather have Wire's season from last year than Leeds' season from last year. Leeds where the best team for about 4 weeks. Wire where the best team for 27 weeks. When i pay £200 plus for my season ticket its because i want to see them finish top of the league, not win a 4 weeks play off comp that i don't give a to$$ about.
Think about how awful it was under Noble, 5th/6th every year then a post season surge in the playoffs-, big deal, we were still a distinctly average SL side regardless of the playoffs.
The only problem is people will look at the list of all time Champions and see '2011 - Leeds' and will then think -'oh Leeds must have been a bloody good side in 2011' when the reality is they are statistically the poorest champions of all time.

By any sensible definition of the word there is an argument going on here.
You don't recognise that because you either don't understand the word or are clearly incapable of engaging in the discussion other than by pouring scorn on it.

Arrogant, dull and patronising to boot...you epitomise and justify every criticism I've seen of Wigan fans in general and posters on here in particular.

DID YOU JUST CALL SOMEONE PATRONISING!!!!!!

There there dear. You're obviously upset and I quite understand, but there's really no need to shout.

Not upset at all, just shocked..... If you want to here something really funny, someone actually managed to get the words "Leeds" and "style" in thee same sentence... That was a killer...



Happy New Year.