I can’t go with any criticism of Williams tbh. He’s a fabulous young player but he’s playing for a coach that simply doesn’t suit his style of play. You only need to look at the negative and safety first style of play Wane wants from his scrum halves to see how unsuited Williams is to our current tactics.

If you put Williams in to the Cas side of 2017 or the Leeds side of 2014/15, you’d be left with an absolute gem of a player.

williams makes so many wrong decisions, tomkins tend to make the killer on that side, george makes the wrong pass or step when he should pass most of the time. Its as though hes not an natural half as in the last 10 years weve had better

Putting debate about his playmaking ability aside, there was simply no excuse for several awful kicks right into the bread basket of Ryan Hall. Particularly when they ended up with seven tackle sets.

Then the solution is quite easy, let’s sell Williams and replace him with metal mickey or C-3PO or alternatively we could always look at changing tactics or dare I say it..... changing the coach!!

The amount of criticism given to our players from our fans is shocking! Other clubs fans laugh at us.

Williams can be frustrating granted and hasn't been at his best form but to say he is rubbish is very harsh. Like has been said in a previous post I think he needs a 7 at the side of him who does all the organising etc so he can concentrate on his own game. He was more comfortable when Smith was 7, not saying we have to go and get Smith back but that style of 7 would be better suited for us. Sam at 7 wouldn't be the answer as the amount of freedom he has from full back allows him to inject himself into the game when he sees fit, maybe Escare could be an option if given a run and Powell reverts back to 9 in the rotation of hookers with Ganson being phased in for next season.

Your solution I feel is the problem, half backs need to gel and this season it’s been a merry go round. This is why we need to invest in a top class 7 who can organise and will allow Williams to show his natural talent and allow him a more off the cuff approach.

I think all this talk about half backs gelling (not Anthony!) is overdone these days, with split halves mostly in play. It tends to be Lockers doing the organising, no matter who is playing 6 or 7 at the time, which is partly why we so often struggle when he goes off.

As long as we have someone (ideally more than one) doing it, it doesn’t need to be a halfback, and that’s not just us - lots of teams nowadays don’t have an organiser in the halves, often the hooker or #13 take on the role.

Fair point you make there, as suggested though we definitely need another organiser on the pitch

Just a point on Sam Powell. He did have a poor game with ball in hand but defensively he was superb, and in the end that's what kept us in the game and helped us to win it. I suspect next year he will be back to #9.

And onto the kicks to Hall. Do you not think that the game plan was to take juice out of him and keep him working? The execution was poor though.

He was the same Good Friday. Brilliant at bottling Barba up on our right side but poor with his ball movement. I started thus thread but certainly not as any sort of witch hunt against Powell. I love his passion and as a 80 minute hooker he’s a good player but I just don’t think it’s working at scrum half. There’s no shame in that but I fear Waney won’t change it and hand in heart I can’t see us getting over the line in a big semi or final against one of the top teams with Powell at scrum half and without that switch up option of Escare on the bench.

I see this said quite a lot but why? His limitations as a scrum half also apply when he plays 9, i.e. his lack of pace and poor passing. You still need these skills as a hooker in the modern game.

I honestly think it comes down to what cap space he takes. In a capped sport he's an asset if he's not taking up much space. Otherwise I agree.

Maybe so but 7 & 9 are key positions I'd expect to be filled by a sides top players not a squad member type of player. If his role was back up hooker far enough. You could bring him on to tackle himself into the ground if the game warranted it. I think his 100% commitment and effort endears him to fans and coach alike and I don't think the coach has any plans on treating him as a squad player but will give him the number 7 (or 9) as first choice.

Like I said for me it's about salary cap. But I agree, 7 and 9 are key positions, I don't think either him or Tommy are what I'd want in a 9, but Wigan don't employ the same tactics as I would for a 9. At Wigan it's all about fast accurate passing from DH to to forwards for a role on, or to the 6 and 7 on either sides, Powell can manage this and tackle his heart out, if he's not on that much, then I can see why he's at the club.

But I agree, Wane sees more in him than I do, giving him the 7 jersey.

Tactically in our system the hooker doesn’t do any running anyway (rightly or wrongly) so a lack of pace isn’t an issue. I also didn’t notice as many poor passes from the floor or with that bit more time from dummy half as I am doing at scrum half. His work at hooker this year in fact has been good with him working well close to the opposition line and bringing our props on to some quality short balls which have lead to try’s. Don’t get me wrong he’s no Terry Newton at hooker but he’s a pretty good option.

Currently he's the best 9 at the club and we look a better side with their IMO

I see your point, Dave but I reckon the thinking comes from the fact he is solid in defense, passes well from the floor to get the team rolling (as opposed to having to make creative passes as a half) and the fact he can do an 80 minute shift which gives us an extra bench option. Very few teams run with 'creative' hookers. Cameron Smith, for sure, but not too many in Superleague. Most of the best are defensive and organising (Hull) or defensive and dummy half runners (Saints/Warrington). This is where the argument falls down a little for me as he is neither an organiser nor much of a dummy half runner which really leaves him there mainly for his defense, which he does well to be fair. Is that enough on it's own though?

People have said that he's as good/better than Tommy but I can't agree. Tommy has added a running threat that we haven't had for some time. More than that, he engages the line before passing which has made a huge difference to our attack in my opinion. He is also an organiser, although we might not always see it from the stands. I think it telling that Sam T. said it was Tommy's decision to go for the drop goal at Leeds against the advice coming from the bench.

I’ve been very pleased with Tommy so far. He isn’t running the ball just for the sake of it and he isn’t a scooter like a Roby or Clark but when he does take it to the line, there’s a real purpose in what he’s doing. He’s looking for gaps, for opportunities to get others in to space and he’s also clever enough to try and win a penalty against a defence that’s retreated slowly.

It’s a tough one the 9 position going forward past this season. As things stand I’d like to see Leuluai kept on but he’s clearly not got as much in the tank as Powell. If Powell isn’t doing at least 60+ minutes a game at nine then I don’t think his impact is high enough to share the roll but I’d be loathed to lose him and then there’s Ganson, who needs more game time.

I personally don’t think we need all three.,

I think at there is honest confusion with how our team plays.

We seem to have the same structure as most but have subtle differences to other teams. At wigan we have:

-FB who's basically an old fashioned 6. They are a ball player and link as a second receiver off the half to feed the edge players SR, centre and winger. they operate on both side of the pitch and are arguably the most important attacker on the pitch
-a left half and right half. often first receivers they control opposite side of the attack and no longer play as a pair.
-a 13 who links the play, can be a first receiver who helps the passing between half backs
-a 9 who's job is quick distribution to the 6, 7, 13, not really to scoot.
-props who's job is to make quick yards, contact, find your feet and PTB as quick as possible not allowing the opposition to reset their line.


-Playing Sam as HB takes away his freedom and ability to use both flanks in attack.
-Lockers is massive, why? cos he links the play, tackles in the middle and can cart the ball in like a prop, basically, he can do it all.

I even think the positional names are mis-leading.

Easier to understand how we play with some name changes:

FB-Second pivot
wingers-wingers
centres-outside backs
-second row-edge players
half back-right half
stand off-left half
prop/13-middles
hooker-dummy half.

Personally, I know what changes I would like to make to our playing style, but currently when I discuss team selections, I go off the structure and tactics we implement.

I think that is correct. The trouble is I think every coach in SL also knows it and doesn't expect it to change much. In particular the role of the 9 seems set in stone at times and there is a lack of variance. This only seems to change when we go behind and are playing catch up. Makes me wonder if the players decide to ditch the rigid game plan then.



It might restrict his freedom but given he's better at the job than Powell it becomes a debate about do you want him at 7 because he's a better half back or not? I think a lot would say Sam at 7 and Esacre at 1 is better than Powell at 7 and Sam at 1. As to Lockers being massive I agree and this just heightens concern over his inevitable retirement and his fairly regular absences from the team now. We don't really have an equivalent replacement who can link the play as he does but continue to try and play as if we have when he is not on the pitch.

It's hard to criticise Powell because he does very little wrong. That said I don't think much is asked of him, he's basically a catch and pass man, no real kicking game and no real attacking threat running with the ball. He does do what Wane asks of him, so any criticism needs to be aimed at the coach, it's his choice to go with Powell, knowing his strengths and weaknesses.

Moving Sam from 1 would be the biggest error for me. He's a natural footballer, he knows when to link in the line, when to throw the cut out pass and when to engage the edge defenders. He's not got the pace to open up gaps like he once had, but he's light years ahead of Escare in this regard. Plus, he's better at organising the D with communication to the line. You lose this when moving him into the halves, not to factor in how many more tackles he'll have to get through, teams would target him in the line to tire him, hurt him etc.

Sam Powell is a great defensive 7. With Powell you don't have to protect him and move him out wide, he has experience of defending closer to the action without issue, this is underrated. However for me a 7 has to threaten the line, they need pace to go through the gap, and have great passing ability, Powell doesn't question the line, he doesn't put fear into the opposition with ball in hand.

Bateman v Leeds was impressive. can handle a range of positions including a ball playing lose. I was impressed with his lateral movement linking the halves, he can do it, he even, dare I say it, reminded me of Andy Faz with is movement, he's more than just a cart horse as a 13.

Yes, but even better IMO is Escare at #7 and Sam at #1. Forget the switcheroo and have TL and Powell as hookers, whoever starts and substitutes doesn’t really matter.

I'd go along with that summary, but surely the point is it's by no means restricted to Wigan. Could you not argue that many (most?) SL and NRL sides adopt a similar policy, with split halves ands a full-back helping link the play. Of course, what the rest of them don't have is Lockers. On the other hand, many of them offer more variety from dummy-half than we do.

I'd say most follow the structure but operate differently.

For example we opt for our props to find their feet, quick play the ball then dummy half out with quick distribution to the halves. Other teams like a 9 who is given the opportunity to run, scoot from dummy half if they chose or even jump from dummy half into a first receiver position, then start the play from there.

Roby, Clark etc are allowed to scoot when they see fit, Rob Burrow was fantastic at quickly scooting, almost sideways into a first receiver position allowing for the whole attacking line to move on one, subtle differences can be the difference in starting the play.

Other teams like their props to 'hit and spin' looking for the offload, others allow their props to push for yardage after contact, there's pros and cons to the subtle differences in how you employ tactics.

Others chose to use the 13 as a straight up 3rd prop, this nulls a ball playing link like Lockers, but does allow for the starting props to remain in the pitch for longer, as the drives, workload is split by 3 not 2 props.

There's so much to it, the structure is merely the foundations.

But playing Sam anywhere other than FB? crazy.