A dip in form?

They literally can't tackle. Teams are offloading for fun against us. That's coaching.

If pro players need to be coached how to tackle and prevent offloads then we are in serious trouble.

Disagree completely. If you need coaching to manage the above you should be nowhere near the first team of any SL team.

Our inability to stop off loads is there for all to see but it’s not because the players don’t know how to do it. It’s largely the same group of players who won the grand final and our champion season was built on defence. The players know how to defend but they’re taking longer than we all hoped to settle into the new structure. I see our current form as nothing more than that and when we click I think somebody will be in for a good hiding. I just hope we click soon!

Attack is more of a concern for me. Halves not creating space for Zak and the outside backs. I think Zak is fantastic, but he's a true FB, whereas Tomkins was really a second pivot or second more old school 6. It's clear to see the difference it's bringing to the team having different personnel.

It is and it isn't. You learn to tackle at a very young age so by pro level they should know how to tackle/stop offloads. However, what is coaching is the defence setup, when to slide, when to hold, when to go one for one etc.
Additionally we can't forget Madge did bring in a 3 man in the tackle technique, 2 make contact, hold the man up, 3rd man comes in so they can lower and turtle the ball carrier so the d line can reset before the PTB.
Additionally, different coaches can 'hide' players in D if the attacking team seeks to target them, like how Saints moved long out wide in D or how the Broncos always positioned Lockyer next to Tallis.

Lots goes into D.

As I've mentioned previously a lot of Wigan fans moaned about "the wrestle" but it was big part of how the team successfully defended. It was very effective at killing the offload and slowing down the opponents ruck speed. It's something we need to get back to and quickly.

I'm shocked. I'd swap Tomkins back for Hardaker in a heartbeat.

couldn't agree more. A successful development installed under Madge. Always allowed our d to reset before the opposition PTB.

Aren't you a Warrington fan?

I am. I don't know what that has to do with recognising Hardaker isn't nearly in the same class as Tomkins.

I never said it did? I just asked if you're a wire fan.

Hardaker has done well so far imo in what is a poor team atm can't wait to see him when we start to click.He has to be given credit as I think he's knuckled down and settled in well

He's one of the best defensive full backs I've seen at Wigan in many a year...

Thinking back we've had:

Tomkins
Bowen
Tomkins (first spell)
Phelps
Roberts
Ashton maybe?

Spot on. We have clearly stopped practicing the wrestle. Big red warrior is way wrong on this one if he thinks that competence remains at the same level without practice. For instance, does Tiger Woods practice or is he happy now that he knows what to do?

Watching Tomkins' performances so far for Catalans makes me even more sure than moving him on and Hardaker signing was deffo an upgrade. Hardaker has been good in a poor team and will only get better, he is still finding his feet. I don't want Lam to go (yet) all of me is willing him to turn it around but his excuses are contradictory and baffling. He needs to put his finger on the button fast. Before Wane announced he was leaving i wanted him to go, I just felt we needed a different direction and style of play. Let's be honest, the rugby was very boring and predictable going forward. We started games like we were going to put 60 on them then let them back in nearly every time and used to win by a couple of try's. I was to see us start demolishing sides with no prospect of comebacks. His defence was second to none but wanted to see a team that performed all season not the last 5 games. When he announced he was leaving i was sad but still thought it was the best way to go. What we are seeing with Lam is still the same players who can't attack very well but seem to have lost the ability to defend too. You can't win matches without one or both of those things. Maybe the players just aren't good enough, maybe Lam's hands are tied regarding recruitment and he is stuck with an average squad with a couple of top players in it. Shaun Wane had a distinct ability to eek out every inch of effort in the team but now that shield has been taken away we are seeing the mentallity level from our squad. I said a couple of weeks ago that at some point the players have to take responsibility and a personal pride must kick in. They know they can do better but don't seem like they want to. Maybe Lam is too soft. Either way, scrap the Edwards thing. I couldn't care less if he is a legend or not. Not heard a squeak out of him for 20 years and now all this. Let him carry on in RU and never invite him back to the stadium again. The club and fans are far more important than a trouble making pot from Standish. Move on. Get behind Lam.

.... and breathe

your joking right?

I’m still struggling with the Tomkins Hardaker thing.

In my opinion this is a massive issue in relation to why our attack isn’t clicking.

Sam was the heartbeat of our attack his movement and ability to find space/provide the link is exactly what we are missing.

I’ve not seen anything even close to that with Hardaker.

That’s not his fault he isn’t that type of player. He is a strike runner not a creator however we need a creator at 1 more than we do a strike runner at the moment.

For me Hardaker is struggling, and will until we get more creativity in the middle of the field around 9, 7 and 6.

This is the main issue Lam or whoever comes in needs to address as a new style is required to get the best out of Hardaker and compliment his style of play.

You're right Jonh, and to your credit you did discuss this prior to Zak putting on a wigan shirt. Half backs aren't creative enough space out wide or gaps to unleash Zak or our outside backs.

Zak is very much a strike weapon, give him half a gap and watch him go.

Not Mathers then?

Richards was brilliant in defense when he played there. Didn't he play there for most of the year when he won MoS?

Yeah can't argue with that. Richards was a beast in D. Didn't link up in the line like a Tomkins style 1 but was as safe as houses under the high ball and could tackle anyone.

He is good under a high ball but other than that defensively he's so so for me in fact on few occasions I'd say he has gone "missing" defensively. Having said that any player playing FB who isn't safe under a high ball isn't really a FB e.g. ST.
Having been off for so long probably hasn't helped him but so far this season I'd put him in the adequate bracket. Hopefully we will see him improve as his fitness improves.
His goal kicking isn't that great and his kicking from hand I'd say is average at best.
If we had signed him from say a championship club I think he would be "non event" so far and if he had been signed as a marque player so far I'd say he would be considered a flop for the money.
As I say though hopefully he will improve as the season progresses.
Best defensive FB in my time would be Radlinski followed by Hampson

Both Rads and Hampo were defensively superb. But for me so is Zak, not just under the highball, but his defensive positioning and 1 on 1 defence. I mean, look at his 1 on 1 try save v Wire, was outstanding.