I have already highlighted them previously.

Have a look yourself and tell me if ANY of those 11, if selected today, would weaken St Helens??????

You have no clue.'"

The opinions of a coach and fans often differ. Hanley wanted Tricky Trindall over Martyn, it proves nothing.

You just stick to convincing people that Vila, Pickavance and Anderson would be playing SL now, desppite not remembering them

You seem to conveniantly forget the other Dozen or so players that would get in to the side today!

I don't recall the fringe players (particularly some of the forwards) all that well, no. I admit that I'm not in a great position to judge whether a particular Saints fringe player of 1996 was better than fringe players now. But that's what most of us who argue against the CC do, we behave rationally and admit that we don't actually know everything.

Its better to do that than make claims that turn out to have no credibility, like the assertion that the players listed in the earlier post were NL1 standard or "rubbish". That can't be taken seriously and undermines your credibility on other issues.

I do recall players like Newlove and Gibbs for example, both were better than any current GB centres (though neither was as good as Gary Connolly, which underlines the talent deficit in the SDL of today) and together were better than any centre pairing in today's Soopah Doopah League.

Your 3/4 line, in fact your back line as a whole in 96 - which I do remember because it was a star-studded backline - was very much stronger than it is now and stronger IMO than the 2006 backline.

Prescott (22) would weaken the team compared to MoS winner Wellens.
Gibbs (25) would weaken the team compared to Gidley.
Newlove (24) would strengthen the team over Wheeler
Sullivan (27) would be incredibly ropey under any sort of high kick, which is a wingers job these days. On a par with Gardner.
Hunte (25) would strengthen the team over Meli
Hammond (21) would weaken the team compared to Pryce at 6 or Wilkin/Flannery at 13.
Martyn (24) on a par with Pryce.
Goulding (24) would weaken the team compared to Long.
Perelini (26) would weaken the team compared to the current 1st choice prop Graham (which is after all the direct comparison).
Cunningham (19) is still playing so don't see your point.
Joynt (24) would strengthen the team.

So 3 of your 11 would strengthen the side, a couple would be on a par with their 2009 counterparts, one is still playing and 5 would weaken the team.

If you were to do the opposite exercise for the whole of the 1996 17 compared to 2009, there would be a hell of a lot more than 3 that strengthened the team.

Ignoring your biase to prove a point as you are and tha 4 of your Comparisons that you say are weaker Would still get into your 1st choice 17 that means you agree that 10 out of those 11 would get a game in the current Saints team and wouldn't cause you a problem??

Are you telling me you would rather have a 32 year old Long compared to a 24 year old Goulding?
A 29 year old Wellens over a 22 year old Prescott?
A 33 year old Overseas Gidley than a 25 year old Gibbs?

You then say Perrelini would weaken the team over Graham!!!! Why Graham???? I can how you try to justify it by claimng 1st choice prop and all that but he would get into Your current Saints team end of!

Also look at the ages of them - All under 27 showing they had plenty mileage in the tank!

I'll tell you what, as Again I will stress my debate is not with the SC (Although as said previously I think it should be altered).

You show me some evidence that what we are watching today in SL is any better/closer to catching the Ausssies in terms of Quality compared to Pre Sl ie Where the National team were say 86 - 95 and then we can discuss further?

Show me the test match results and compare them, Show me the WCC results and compare them, show me something that will convince me that what I am watching is any Better than what I watched 10/15 + years ago!

Of course that should be the comparison! If not, then lets have a look the other way round, I'll even put Martyn at 6 for you and Hunte on the wing (even though Danny Arnold/Joey Hayes played most of the year on the wing)

1 S Prescott - Wellens
2 A Hunte - Hunte
3 S Gibbs - Gidley
4 P Newlove - Newlove
5 A Sullivan - Par with Meli/Gardner
6 T Martyn - Par with Pryce
7 B Goulding - Lance Todd Legend
8 A Perelini - Graham
9 K Cunningham - Same
10 A Fogerty - Cayless
11 C Joynt - Joynt
12 S Booth - Gilmour
13 K Hammond - Wilkin

14 A Northey - Flannery
15 I Pickavance - Clough
16 V Matatutia - Puletua
17 D Busby - Roby

1996: 3, Same: 3, 2009: 11.

You may disagree with a couple, but you'll be hard pressed to disagree sufficiently to conclude that the 1996 team is better than the 2009 team, and that's before even considering the quality of the back ups from the academy.

You're assuming that the Aussie game hasn't improved too.

The fact that we all reminisce misty eyed about players like Connolly who scored ONE try in his international career says it all.

And the fact that you have to Worry that he scored only 1 try in international rugby to divert away from what would be in, I would bet, Most people opinions that Connolly between 91-2002 was better than ANYTHING we have available to us now (Along with Newlove and many of the others you chose not to discuss earer) shows to me that you arent interested in DEBATE, only in proving yourself to be Right on the situation!

When in fact the truth lies somwhere between the two.

PS

Your comparisons in the 2 x teams are contrived to say the least! Considering you havent brough the ages of these players into it shows me something too!

What you are trying to do is compare a particular point in time and say that team/Player was better than it's counterpart at that particular point in time.
It doesn't work!

Your original statement (Forgive me if it wasn't you but it was a Saints fan earlier) said the 2009 team would "Muller" the 1996 team!

I still maintain that 11/12 of that 17 would get a game at Saints Now and not weaken the team (Maybe in someones opinion they may say Long was better than Goulding but in other peoples eyes maybe he wasn't?? Theres not a lot of difference IMO).

On the other hand 12/13 of todays 17 would get a game in the 96 squad and again not weaken the team etc.

One thing for sure, they wouldn't get mullered!

######################################################

Do me a favour and go back to the post about the 92 World Cup squad etc and please tell me if we have as many quality options as we did then?????

Bear in mind that in the early & middle years of SL the influx of Foregin players was far greater than what ot was Pre SL IIRC???
The Kolpac etc has had a major part to play I know but that in itself has Aided the quality of SDL that we watched whilst in reality did not help in the growth at international level which we surely are all after achieving???

Senior has been better (and undoubtedly more dangerous) in a GB shirt than Connolly IMO.



I thought we were comparing which was better, not which was younger.



Then how can you say that standards have dropped if you can't compare players from different time periods? Of course you can, especially over such a relatively short timescale.



I said the 2006 team would muller them and the 2009 team would beat them, both of which I still believe to be true. The 96 team wouldn't get out of it's own half against the 2006 pack.



I'm not saying we do. What I am saying is that any perceived decline in playing standards relevant to that period has resulted from poor junior development from the early 80s onwards (with the 6/7 year olds of 1980 making up the bulk being the pitiful team of the 2000 World Cup). This has nothing to do with SDL or the CC, it is poor junior development. In fact, I would argue that the juniors coming through and overall standard has improved since the inception of SL (1996 to today), but that standards at the inception of SL were undoubtedly poor compared to the early 1990s.

Thankfully, there appears to be some genuine young talent coming through the revitalised junior ranks of a lot of clubs (with your own Sam Tomkins labelled as the best young player since Edwards?)



Not trying to be funny mate, but I don't quite understand this point? Can you reword? If you're saying an influx of foreign players has hindered young English players I agree 100%. Thankfully this is now also being addressed by the "British trained" rule, which is a welcome development.

We can harp back to the 90s all we like but the fact of the matter is, we won nothing then either. The only way to genuinely compete with the Aussies (without bolstering the team with the best RU players) is to get the junior development nailed, and have them progressing from the academy into a genuinely intense and competitive league.

There are tentative signs that SL is becoming close enough to offer a genuione challenge to young players at the top clubs and I am optimistic that this will help breed better GB players in the medium term.

I am glad that your confident!

I am saying that providing opportunities for the youngsters and a conduit for them to come through can be done with or without SC.
What must be done is to find a Path for these youngsters to progress them to the Top Level whilst not setting SC levels that Hinder this Production line!
If Saints do bring through 5/6/7 juniors at once will they stay at 20 years of age and play for 20k a year of their lucky???? Bearing in mind the clubs have existing contracts etc for more experienced players!!!!!!

The SC should exist with a Weighting to encourage Homegrown & Youth development players.
The SC should also exist Whilst alowing clubss who have done things Well On & Off the field i.e Leeds (Not Missing Saints out here but picking Leeds as they have come a long way in SL on & Off the field.) to exploit this.
The SC should encourage clubs to "Grow" and bring in revenue and be allowed to use that revenue as much as they want i.e 50% of Turnover on players wages to an Upper Limit for example.

What I am saying is that the SC has not improved standards in this country in any way as the only way it can help is to make each club in the competion more even, that does not mean they are any good!

The SC should exist in a way that allows development of clubs & players in tandem whilst providing good incentives for Club developed, British youth to make it's way to the Top Level.
Some of these issues are being put right, but not all.

On the playing front I still do not agree that the Quality of player/Play we see week in week out is any better than we saw 5/10/15+ years ago.

We didn't win anything prior to SL and haven't since.
Prior to 1996 we came in with around 1 win in three v the Aussies.
Now it's around 1 in 14.
The only win I can remember recently is the 1996 victory at the SFS where Mason belted Fielden and cleaned out Sean Long. Longy returned after half time with a bandage round his head and went on to win MOM.
When was our previous win to that v the Aussies?
We don't have the quality players now that we had then and it's daft to suggest we do.
First time I saw GB our 2 shirt was worn by Billy Boston, 3 shirt Eric Ashton. Does anyone seriously suggest that in the last World Cup Gardner and Gleeson are true successors to Boston and Ashton, never mind Fox and Shenton?
The RFL and SL have never come to terms with Union going professional. Wigan's top five try scorers Boston, Offiah, Lake, Norgren & Ring all came from Union. Don't know too much about Saints but Van Vollenhoven was on the wing when I first saw them. And which SL winger today is better than Tom Van Vollenhoven? I believe Saints all time points scorer is Kel Coslett. Vollenhoven & Coslett didn't come through Blackbrook & Pilks!
We are missing a massive amount of talent now Union players no longer come to League and every GB team had former Union players in it until the SL era.
The drop in talent to me is dramatic and only radical change and improvement to the RFL and SL can bring this about. This means also a change and improvement in personnel at the very top of the RFL and SL .

Fieldens not been in the same in any of the 13 seasons since to be fair

Should we have a salary cap based on Overseas players. Limit it so that British players are not counted on the cap, we could keep more players in the game this way.

Maybe a bit of selective memory there pal.

If you're talking ashes series we lost 2-1 in 97 and 2-1 in 2001 too. We lost 3-0 in 2003 but by 4, 3 and 6 points. Plus the win in Sydney. Not sure if anyone can remember any others?

2-1 was a pretty familiar result in 80s/90s everyone talks about, and there were worst whitewashes than the one in 2003 (worst Aussie team ever yadda yadda).

1 in 14 is harsh, even including the one off test farce and the recent world cup.



I agree, my argument is that we have improved since 1996 and I would take Shenton and Fox over Wellens and Naylor anyday, which I think was our centre/wing pairing in the 2000 World Cup semi final.

There is no doubt that we are less competetive with the Aussies than we were in the early 90s, but that's a different argument to standards slipping in SL, which I don't think they are.



Absolutely agree, but was it healthy to rely so heavily on RU players at international level? The marked drop since they all went back to RU suggests not. I would rather we concentrated on developing our own stars than nicking Unions.



No doubt, although I would suggest that the changes being made are steps in the right direction, but it will be 5/10 years before we see the full benefits.

Unfortunately, the rate of improvement in Australia seems to continue to outstrip our own.

Quote ="Deano G"Hmmm. The pro-CC people are being clever here, or at least trying to be. First they pick a year far enough in the past that we've probably now forgotten about much of the detail, but one in which their team was the stand-out side. '" So you can't remember 1996? How then do you know if SL has impoved or not since it's inception? Quote They then attack the quality of their own squad, which makes them seem very reasonable and fair-minded and its difficult (as a Wigan fan) to resist the temptation to join in.'" Not attacking the squad - just being truthful. Quote However, this thread - as has been stated repeatedly - isn't about Wigan or Saints but the SDL, so instead of joining the baying hordes of Saints fans attacking their own side I did a little research on a couple of the (allegedly) "NL1 standard" players listed above that I definitely did recall from the mid-90s at Saints, Pickavance and Matautia. I was interested to see that "The Saints Heritage Society" (I'm tempted to note that "Saints Heritage" is an oxymoron, but will try not to provoke our friends from Merseyside!) don't agree with this assessment. In fact they are both given great write-ups on their website: www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=16151 www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=15913'" They are hardly going to say "player x was shiiite, missed 10 tackles a game and repeatedly got penalised for foul play" etc, are they? Quote You may remember that Matuatia - this top quality player according to Saints sources - was the third choice centre behind Newlove and Gibbs, a better centre pairing by far than any currently playing in SDL.'" Actually, Hunte was the back-up centre. With Arnold on the wing. Quote Trying to be as fair as possible, I even looked up Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson, who I admit I didn't remember at all. I was expecting him to be a dismal failure. I was surprised, based on comments in this thread, to see that he appears to have been a quality young player who didn't quite make it in the end but was a decent SL player in the mid-90s. It seems that a real disservice has been done to this player by fans of the St Helens club. I must mention in the interests of fairness that he did go on to play for Leigh, presumably seeking first team football, but Paul appears to have been a talented young player, certainly in the mid 90s. Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson was - according to Saints Heritage Society - St Helens' "Young Player of the Year" in 1996 - the year in question - and a "valuable interchange player" in 1997 and 1998. '" Remind me, which division did Leigh play in from 1999 onwards? Quote Oh dear. Another pro-CC argument disintegrates under scrutiny....'" Since your memory is conveniently fading (yet somehow you know that SL has declined since 1996???) , I suggest you go back and actually watch some matches from the 1996 season, so you can see Paul "talented young player" Anderson, Vila "top quality player" Matautia and Saints numerous other squad superstars in action.

Quote ="Deano G"Hmmm. The pro-CC people are being clever here, or at least trying to be. First they pick a year far enough in the past that we've probably now forgotten about much of the detail, but one in which their team was the stand-out side. '" So you can't remember 1996? How then do you know if SL has impoved or not since it's inception? Quote They then attack the quality of their own squad, which makes them seem very reasonable and fair-minded and its difficult (as a Wigan fan) to resist the temptation to join in.'" Not attacking the squad - just being truthful. Quote However, this thread - as has been stated repeatedly - isn't about Wigan or Saints but the SDL, so instead of joining the baying hordes of Saints fans attacking their own side I did a little research on a couple of the (allegedly) "NL1 standard" players listed above that I definitely did recall from the mid-90s at Saints, Pickavance and Matautia. I was interested to see that "The Saints Heritage Society" (I'm tempted to note that "Saints Heritage" is an oxymoron, but will try not to provoke our friends from Merseyside!) don't agree with this assessment. In fact they are both given great write-ups on their website: www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=16151 www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=15913'" They are hardly going to say "player x was shiiite, missed 10 tackles a game and repeatedly got penalised for foul play" etc, are they? Quote You may remember that Matuatia - this top quality player according to Saints sources - was the third choice centre behind Newlove and Gibbs, a better centre pairing by far than any currently playing in SDL.'" Actually, Hunte was the back-up centre. With Arnold on the wing. Quote Trying to be as fair as possible, I even looked up Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson, who I admit I didn't remember at all. I was expecting him to be a dismal failure. I was surprised, based on comments in this thread, to see that he appears to have been a quality young player who didn't quite make it in the end but was a decent SL player in the mid-90s. It seems that a real disservice has been done to this player by fans of the St Helens club. I must mention in the interests of fairness that he did go on to play for Leigh, presumably seeking first team football, but Paul appears to have been a talented young player, certainly in the mid 90s. Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson was - according to Saints Heritage Society - St Helens' "Young Player of the Year" in 1996 - the year in question - and a "valuable interchange player" in 1997 and 1998. '" Remind me, which division did Leigh play in from 1999 onwards? Quote Oh dear. Another pro-CC argument disintegrates under scrutiny....'" Since your memory is conveniently fading (yet somehow you know that SL has declined since 1996???) , I suggest you go back and actually watch some matches from the 1996 season, so you can see Paul "talented young player" Anderson, Vila "top quality player" Matautia and Saints numerous other squad superstars in action.

I can remember 1996, just not the details of the lesser lights in the Saints team, which isn't unreasonable of me as a Wigan fan!

Frankly your posts and those of FTV suggest that you can't either. I'd expect you to have a firmer grip since its your team we are talking about. I'm surprised you're still advancing this line of argument.







Personally I never thought Matautia was a great player - but I'd been spoiled by watching true greats at centre such as Bell, Lydon, Connolly, Miles, Inga, Iro - he did have some disciplinary issues but he certainly was not "NL1 standard" or some of the less choice adjectives you/FTV have used to describe him and others.



Tthey could say "hard working player, good try scoring record but had some disciplinary problems" or "great servant to the club, team player". They don't need to 'big up' players by suggesting they were top class, not if they were really only "NL1 standard". I'm sure the Saints Heritage Society aren't going to want to look stupid by going overboard.

If you're that concerned why don't you contact them to set the record straight. An email on the following lines, presumably:

"Dear Sirs

I'm a Saints fan. I'm having a debate with Wigan fans on the internet about our 1996 squad. It isn't going well and I need your help.

I've been telling the pie-eaters that our double winning team largely consisted of third rate players but they won't accept that most of the squad would only be fit for today's NL1. They have pointed to some favourable reviews on your website of players like Matautia, Pickavance and even Paul Anderson (not Baloo!). Please could you change these to make it clear that these players were not very good at all. I appreciate you will want to be tactful but if you could say something like "Tremendously hard-working and loyal, [x always gave 100% and while never commanding a regular place in the side or really fulfilling his initial promise, this wasn't through lack of effort and he will be fondly remembered as a nice guy off the field" that would be great.

This kind of coded reference to them being rubbish would really help us in our argument with these unreasonable Wigan fans - you won't believe this but these pie-munchers are actually claiming that the majority of our double winning squad of 1996 were good players rather than NL1 standard (I know, ridiculous isn't it!).

Yours etc

A Concerned Sintelliner

PS. If I could make one other helpful suggestion, why not simply delete all references to players from prior to 1996. We all know RL didn't really exist before the SL era and it would reduce the amount of work you had to do. Hope that helps."



Ah. So Matautia was fourth choice centre. Pretty good strength in depth there from this much maligned 1996 squad.



Read the report on SHS. He went off to Leigh in the end but was a "valuable interchange player" in SL in 97 and 98. Not my words, theirs. Sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.



Your memory clearly doesn't fade. That's a great faculty. Congratulations on your "total recall". You should go for the world memory championships.

For the record, I didn't bring up Paul (NOT BALOO!), Matautia or Pickavance. I was told they and others were rubbish, did some digging and confirmed they weren't.

Quote ="Deano G"I can remember 1996, just not the details of the lesser lights in the Saints team, which isn't unreasonable of me as a Wigan fan! Frankly your posts and those of FTV suggest that you can't either. I'd expect you to have a firmer grip since its your team we are talking about. I'm surprised you're still advancing this line of argument.'" So, what you are saying is that you've got no idea how good or otherwise these fringe players were, but yet you can readily state that the Saints fans' opinions about them are incorrect based solely upon blatantly biased reports on the Saints Heritage Site? Quote Personally I never thought Matautia was a great player - but I'd been spoiled by watching true greats at centre such as Bell, Lydon, Connolly, Miles, Inga, Iro - he did have some disciplinary issues but he certainly was not "NL1 standard" or some of the less choice adjectives you/FTV have used to describe him and others.'" Yet you happliy quoted from, as you put it, Saints sources that Vila was "a top quality player", yet you personally never rated him. Remember I too, have seen many greats in the red vee........ Quote They could say "hard working player, good try scoring record but had some disciplinary problems" or "great servant to the club, team player". They don't need to 'big up' players by suggesting they were top class, not if they were really only "NL1 standard". I'm sure the Saints Heritage Society aren't going to want to look stupid by going overboard. '" I suggest you read the link you posted again. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Quote If you're that concerned why don't you contact them to set the record straight. An email on the following lines, presumably: "Dear Sirs I'm a Saints fan. I'm having a debate with Wigan fans on the internet about our 1996 squad. It isn't going well and I need your help. I've been telling the pie-eaters that our double winning team largely consisted of third rate players but they won't accept that most of the squad would only be fit for today's NL1. They have pointed to some favourable reviews on your website of players like Matautia, Pickavance and even Paul Anderson (not Baloo!). Please could you change these to make it clear that these players were not very good at all. I appreciate you will want to be tactful but if you could say something like "Tremendously hard-working and loyal, [x always gave 100% and while never commanding a regular place in the side or really fulfilling his initial promise, this wasn't through lack of effort and he will be fondly remembered as a nice guy off the field" that would be great. This kind of coded reference to them being rubbish would really help us in our argument with these unreasonable Wigan fans - you won't believe this but these pie-munchers are actually claiming that the majority of our double winning squad of 1996 were good players rather than NL1 standard (I know, ridiculous isn't it!). Yours etc A Concerned Sintelliner'" What a ludicrious suggestion! Quote PS. If I could make one other helpful suggestion, why not simply delete all references to players from prior to 1996. We all know RL didn't really exist before the SL era and it would reduce the amount of work you had to do. Hope that helps."'" Bitter much? Quote Ah. So Matautia was fourth choice centre. Pretty good strength in depth there from this much maligned 1996 squad.'" Matautia was primarily used in the second row hence why he was fourth choice centre. Quote Read the report on SHS. He went off to Leigh in the end but was a "valuable interchange player" in SL in 97 and 98. Not my words, theirs. Sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.'" "Valuable interchange player" - that's a nothing statement. If he really was good, his "write up" would be far more descriptive like these; Tommy Martyn - a player which Wiganer's don't rate. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Paul Newlove www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Anthony Sullivan www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Also, remember Barry Ward? Is that recent enough for you? www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Can you perhaps see now that there is quite a lot of misty-eyed biased towards Saints' ex-players (and rightly so)! Those biographies are written by Saints fans, not some random RL journalist. If Wigan, or any team in any sport for that matter, had such a website, then you would expect to have the same bias. Here's a challenge for you. Pick a past Saints player and bring to the fore your opinions of him, heck, even write a few things down if it helps. Then, look him up on the Heritage site and you will see a marked difference between YOUR opinion and that of the SAINTS FAN's write up. Go on, try it. Quote Your memory clearly doesn't fade. That's a great faculty. Congratulations on your "total recall". You should go for the world memory championships.'" I would if I could remember where they were held! Quote For the record, I didn't bring up Paul (NOT BALOO!), Matautia or Pickavance. I was told they and others were rubbish, did some digging and confirmed they weren't.'" No, we said that they were NL1 standard players who would struggle to get into a current SL side. There is a BIG difference.

Quote ="Deano G"I can remember 1996, just not the details of the lesser lights in the Saints team, which isn't unreasonable of me as a Wigan fan! Frankly your posts and those of FTV suggest that you can't either. I'd expect you to have a firmer grip since its your team we are talking about. I'm surprised you're still advancing this line of argument.'" So, what you are saying is that you've got no idea how good or otherwise these fringe players were, but yet you can readily state that the Saints fans' opinions about them are incorrect based solely upon blatantly biased reports on the Saints Heritage Site? Quote Personally I never thought Matautia was a great player - but I'd been spoiled by watching true greats at centre such as Bell, Lydon, Connolly, Miles, Inga, Iro - he did have some disciplinary issues but he certainly was not "NL1 standard" or some of the less choice adjectives you/FTV have used to describe him and others.'" Yet you happliy quoted from, as you put it, Saints sources that Vila was "a top quality player", yet you personally never rated him. Remember I too, have seen many greats in the red vee........ Quote They could say "hard working player, good try scoring record but had some disciplinary problems" or "great servant to the club, team player". They don't need to 'big up' players by suggesting they were top class, not if they were really only "NL1 standard". I'm sure the Saints Heritage Society aren't going to want to look stupid by going overboard. '" I suggest you read the link you posted again. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Quote If you're that concerned why don't you contact them to set the record straight. An email on the following lines, presumably: "Dear Sirs I'm a Saints fan. I'm having a debate with Wigan fans on the internet about our 1996 squad. It isn't going well and I need your help. I've been telling the pie-eaters that our double winning team largely consisted of third rate players but they won't accept that most of the squad would only be fit for today's NL1. They have pointed to some favourable reviews on your website of players like Matautia, Pickavance and even Paul Anderson (not Baloo!). Please could you change these to make it clear that these players were not very good at all. I appreciate you will want to be tactful but if you could say something like "Tremendously hard-working and loyal, [x always gave 100% and while never commanding a regular place in the side or really fulfilling his initial promise, this wasn't through lack of effort and he will be fondly remembered as a nice guy off the field" that would be great. This kind of coded reference to them being rubbish would really help us in our argument with these unreasonable Wigan fans - you won't believe this but these pie-munchers are actually claiming that the majority of our double winning squad of 1996 were good players rather than NL1 standard (I know, ridiculous isn't it!). Yours etc A Concerned Sintelliner'" What a ludicrious suggestion! Quote PS. If I could make one other helpful suggestion, why not simply delete all references to players from prior to 1996. We all know RL didn't really exist before the SL era and it would reduce the amount of work you had to do. Hope that helps."'" Bitter much? Quote Ah. So Matautia was fourth choice centre. Pretty good strength in depth there from this much maligned 1996 squad.'" Matautia was primarily used in the second row hence why he was fourth choice centre. Quote Read the report on SHS. He went off to Leigh in the end but was a "valuable interchange player" in SL in 97 and 98. Not my words, theirs. Sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.'" "Valuable interchange player" - that's a nothing statement. If he really was good, his "write up" would be far more descriptive like these; Tommy Martyn - a player which Wiganer's don't rate. www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Paul Newlove www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Anthony Sullivan www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Also, remember Barry Ward? Is that recent enough for you? www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10 Can you perhaps see now that there is quite a lot of misty-eyed biased towards Saints' ex-players (and rightly so)! Those biographies are written by Saints fans, not some random RL journalist. If Wigan, or any team in any sport for that matter, had such a website, then you would expect to have the same bias. Here's a challenge for you. Pick a past Saints player and bring to the fore your opinions of him, heck, even write a few things down if it helps. Then, look him up on the Heritage site and you will see a marked difference between YOUR opinion and that of the SAINTS FAN's write up. Go on, try it. Quote Your memory clearly doesn't fade. That's a great faculty. Congratulations on your "total recall". You should go for the world memory championships.'" I would if I could remember where they were held! Quote For the record, I didn't bring up Paul (NOT BALOO!), Matautia or Pickavance. I was told they and others were rubbish, did some digging and confirmed they weren't.'" No, we said that they were NL1 standard players who would struggle to get into a current SL side. There is a BIG difference.

Yes.

I get the feeling that the pretty unprofessional Goulding would struggle to impose himself on games in a consistent way similar to the way Briers does now.

You need a far more professional attitude to succeed in SL nowadays.



Yet Senior has done far better at International level in, in your opinion, a far weaker team.

So either the teams aren't that far apart, allowing a much weaker Senior to shine more, or Senior is far better than Connolly as he's done better in a far weaker side.

Which is it? I can't see a much weaker player playing in a far weaker side being more of a success than a far stronger player in a far stronger side.

Funny how Saints with a relatively average squad managed to beat The Mighty Wigoon to the league title in 1996. Let's not forget how The Mighty Wigoon, shortly after being all-conquering, lost to part-timers Salford in the cup as well. Just how great was that team? Not very when you look at how they were beaten to the title by a squad that signalled the decline of RL standards over here.

This forum is even more biased than any Saints or Leeds one.

Sorry about that, I meant the 2006 test at the SFS.
Bloody Hell I was there!
Again apologies!

Feel free not to frequent it.

Now that you have both re-appeared can Father Ted respond on the points on page 16 and Brett Keny to the points on page 17.

It seems whenever you are asked to back up your make-believe points you disappear only to return a few days later repeating the same old rubbish.

For you Brett