Am I missing something here? Noble brought Flanagan in from Bradford (link below) so he knew all about his potential, and didn't give him a shot at the 1st team. Could you make it up? www.independent.co.uk/sport/gene ... 30815.html

Am I missing something here? Noble brought Flanagan in from Bradford (link below) so he knew all about his potential, and didn't give him a shot at the 1st team. Could you make it up? www.independent.co.uk/sport/gene ... 30815.html

There are plenty of other players who are not special cases who got débuts and had long stints in the first team as teenagers in the NRL.

Have a look at these three I found with not much effort.

Lachlan Coote, Chris Lawrence and Wade Graham. Graham makes Sam Tomkins look big. Graham is 5 foot 9 and 73kg yet has played 18 games for Penrith as a teenager so hardly a genetic freak. I think Coote is about the same size. None of them are genetic freaks but all made débuts as teenagers and played significant number of games as teenagers.

As to them being outside backs we have had outside backs waiting for chances who have not been given it until it was forced on Noble. We even had, as has been pointed out Colbon playing in the pack before giving forwards a chance.

I don't understand why you are arguing against what has gone on at Wigan recently because the evidence is young players are getting chances both in SL and in the NRL but we have been very reluctant to do it.



I am well aware you won't keep everyone happy but I have provided enough evidence now to show it is you not I with the wrong idea about the introduction of young players to the modern game. There are numerous teenagers who have all played significant numbers of games in both SL and NRL to highlight the fact it is not the exception you maintain it is.

Dave

Once again highlighting players size is where you fall down it has nothing to do with that its about development.

How realistically could Flanigan have got a shot before he did?

Colbon was playing in the pack for the reserves and doing a good job hence he got his shot there.

Players have to be developed enough and show up in the reserves to earn there shot, you cannot just give away a first team shirt on the off chance they can step up when they have not proved it in the reserves or on loan.

Flanigan was down the pecking order for a reason his performances did not merit him getting a shot, if he had what is to say Mossop/Farrell would not have moved on.

Personally I am not sad to see him go, i hope he goes well in the NRL but i feel we have 3 junior backrow forwards at the club coming through who are superior, we can no longer stock pile players.

Tomkins got his shot, Mossop got his shot Farrell will get his shot next year.

The NRL system is very different and those young players that do get a shot have to earn it by playing in a much more intense and higher standard of "reserve grade" rugby.

All young players have a duty of care we saw what happened to the likes of Brown who was not ready for regullar first team and it showed, we had players like Wild, Locky and Hock who came on the scene at a relatively young age all took near career ending injuries early on in there career, coincidence? Westerman has dropped off the pace this year as has Myler after a good start, players like Fielden fall apart as they age due to over use when young.

Its a very fine line and i would suggest that to see our young players go so well is an indication that they are being handled in the correct way and groomed for a career at Wigan rather than a couple of years and then shipping them off to Huddersfield etc.

If we had a better reserve and academy competition I think we would see a far higher number of players coming through at a younger age.

i hope you can keep hold of young mellor.

I highlighted some players who you said were not good examples of young players getting into 1st grade sides because they were genetic freaks. So I highlight some who are not genetic freaks and now suddenly it's not about size. Make your mind up! I await with interest what other factor you can dream up to suggest these players are somehow exceptional.



Colbon was played out of position all over the place when we had young players who could have been given a go. Few people except the poster who was either his best mate or relative was happy about this and the majority were suggesting we give the younger players a go. A recurring theme of Nobby's coaching over the three years has been to play players out of position rather than give the younger players a go when the opportunity arises. If you are suggesting this was the right thing to do you are in a minority.



As Cadoo has pointed out you will never find out how good they are by constantly playing them in the reserves. Hoping they might be good enough when we have enough injuries for them to be given a game is a risky and foolish strategy IMO.



You know as well as I do they got their shots due to injury and no other reason. Players playing in positions who had established players recover from injury got dropped instantly including S Tomkins after a match winning performance (we lost the next game he missed). The whole system of player introduction at Wigan is flawed and I expect it to change with a new coach so we will see who is right then.



And we have had players who have not. We have also had senior players who's form has dropped off. It happens!

Duty of care is utter tripe. The reason being there is none when it suits.



So it was wrong to send Mossop to Hudds and really he should have stayed at Barrow because at Hudds be was getting SL game time which he wasn't ready for? If he was ready give some game time here to give J Tomkins a break.

If there has been a recurring theme at Wigan this season it is that when young players have been given a game they have not looked out of place and often better then or as good as the 1st team player they replaced. You think this is proof of the job being done right. I think it is proof they were ready for 1st team earlier and that the lack of opportunities they get will lead to players like Flanagan leaving.

It really does boil down to age. If players of age 20 and 21 are not getting or have not had opportunities they will look elsewhere. With Flanagan had injuries not forced him into the side no one would have batted an eye because we had no idea how good he was.

The only way a club can keep players they presumably view as future 1st team players is give them some game time and make them feel part of the future plans of the club. Next season players like Thornily and Farrell who have not featured this year will need some opportunities or there is a risk they will look elsewhere. Hopefully we will have a coach who can juggle the priorities far better than Noble.

Dave

Development is not an excuse dreamed up. If a young player is still growing there bones are significantly weaker and prone to more injuries while this is the case.

To add to this the ligaments are still growing and developing hence why we have seen in my opinion such bad injuries to the younger players in the squad over the last 5 years. I sure i could trawl through a load of journals that would back this up.

The truth is it is not just BN that makes this call, it is the medical team not just the conditioner including the Physio's and Club doctor.

To throw in a lad who is still developing not growing would be madness, players that arrive on the scene and stay on the scene are usually very well developed naturally from a very young are, many of the young players who have a season in the top flight soon vanish into obscurity as form dips and injuries take hold.

If a players form dips then I agree he should be dropped which Noble has not done but in the case of the secondrow Flanigan would still not have got a game due to the others ahead of him.

I also find this notion of "just how good he is" an interesting one, the lad has been down the pecking order due to not being as impressive as others in the reserves, he has taken his chance but in reality he has played a handfull of games and the reaction is like we are losing a key player in the team.

The reaction only seems to have started since it was announced that "no-one has talked to him".

When he was leaving for non-IL or BN related reasons, few fans seemed to care.

If it's true that he's been yet another face that didn't fit with Brian Noble - which I'm finding very tiresome, given that Nobby is supposed to be a professional - then it's very unfortunate for the lad and probably for us.

But I'm inclined to agree with you about his development. It's only in recent weeks that I've seen anything impressive from Flanagan, by which time his Aussie decsion had apparently already been made. So people will need to forgive me if I'm not too convinced by all the hot air suddenly being blown about his impending departure.

But given he was bought by BN and he is also great mated with his old man i doubt this is the case.

Simply he was not viewed as a priority due to the fact his performances in the Reserves did not warrant it.

He has taken his first team chance well when it has come but if he wanted to stay at Wigan and earn a first team shirt, which every player must do not just be given a chance because they are young, he should have made the point by performing in the Reserves to a higher level.

Which is why I'm suspicious about his given reasons for leaving.

There were strong stories a few weeks ago, not just from the club but from various 'informers', that his girlfriend was going, so he wanted to go.

The fact that it also warrants a mention in the article does seem to suggest there may be some truth in that. Lets be honest West Tigers will not have been searching the English Reserves for there next signing.

I would speculate that Frank was asked to find him a club in Australia, for whatever reason by Flannigan.

[i I spoke to my agent, Frank, and he suggested the idea of playing in Australia.[/i Why would you speculate as you have given this quote? This reads to me that Wests was Frank's idea, not Flan's.

Because i rarely take what a player or a coach says as gospel when a change of club goes through especially when it is so far out of left field in this case, call me a cynic if you like.

Cynic.

Either way what ever happened the lads gone now, let's not forget we more than any other club have a knack for bringing through backrowers and even with his departure it doesn't leave us short.

My only hope for the lad is that he makes a big success of it, and if he does one day wish to come back to the UK and were interested in him then he may choose us over others because of are history with him.

I don't think that was so much the case. I think it was more fans had never seen him play in the first team so they had no idea how good he was/could be.



I don't think this is the case (if you are referring to Flanagan) because Brian Noble is his godfather.

True but had



We could have made a much more suitable and accurate judgement.

Which players are you referring to?

It's also because he wasn't doing much in the reserves, so many of those who did see him play weren't massively impressed.

He surprised quite a few people with his first-team form, but by then his decision about Aus seems to have been made.

We should also remember that he's now something like 21. That's some way down the line for a club 'junior' to start showing what he can do. The likes of Sam, Ainsough, Farrell, Thornley, etc, came to general notice quite a bit earlier, even if they didn't make the first team then.

If this is the case then why weren't "the others ahead of him" given a shot?



The fact that he has been 'less impressive in the reserves as others' but has made an impressive impact in the first team just goes to show how inaccurate judging players by their performance in the reserves is.

IMO the only true measure of how ready a player is is by giving them a shot in the first team.

Well the bit you mention about the reserves suggests to me how inaccurate people's judgements of players are from their performances in the reserves. Take a lad out of his comfort zone either in the first team or on loan and you will make a more accurate judgment.

If what you're saying here is that Brian Noble's judgement is sometimes flawed, I heartily agree. That's why I hope we replace him with someone who's proved the opposite about himself.

But what you also seem to be suggesting is that, because the reserve competition is weak at present, lads need to be pitched into the first team on a regular basis to see what they can do, regardless of their form in the reserves. Yes?

If so, I disagree. The first team should certainly be made available to youngsters who the training staff feel have qualified, but it's not a training ground for just anyone.

I've slagged Brian Noble off for many things this last year. But I'm not going to slag him off over this Flanagan business, because no-one else I know thought that Flanagan was going to make it big either. And I don't buy this business about Noble never speaking to him - especially if, as you say, Nobby is close to the Flanagan family.

Mossop and Tomkins have.

You cannot just throw players in unless they earn there shirt though, that is a ridiculous notion.

It is up to him to earn his shirt.

If he played like he has in the first team in the reserves showing the same amount of desire and commitment he would have got his shot earlier.

Not on a regular basis. Just when opportunities occur that aren't injuries.

When players are off form being a better example. To give off form players like Joel Tomkins a rest instead of either sticking with off form players or shuffling about the team and playing players out of position i.e Liam Colbon in the second row and the musical chairs this season we have seen a lot.

A good example is the Huddersfield away match.

(Note my opinion would still be the same even if we had won)

I would have given Josh Vievers a shot at fullback and Cameron Phelps a chance at six. We would get an idea where Josh Vievers at also giving him a chance to show what he can do in a one off match. No pressure on you son just go out and show what you can do. This would also allow for us to see how useful Phelps is at six. His biggest strength at fullback has been his inter-linking play in attack (10 try assists to his name the most for a fullback) and also some of the kicks he has made this season in general play, I don't know if anyone has noticed, have been superb. Plus the fact the Aussies rated him as a six, he himself has said this is his favourite position and he has played at Australia and SOO as a young lad in this position - it just gives us a chance to see how much depth we have in our squad should Sam Tomkins get injured. Huddersfield have done it. Faimu (sp) playing at loose forward being an example and other various shifts.