If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

I think this applies with respect to this idea of leading by example. People accept it because they want to believe it. So it's a myth IMO.

I will side with BK on this because there have been too many instances where despite Lockers playing example the team has had no leadership when it needed it. Simple as that. He has no plan B if plan A "leading by example" isn't working.

Dave

I have experienced as i am sure many others who post on here playing under people who lead by example, in some very successfull teams.

I would suggest you and others do not want to believe it hence you do not accept it. It works both ways.

The evidence is clearly there that his leadership style is appreciated by the pro's which is why he has captained every team he has been in apart from full GB, which i feel he will one day.

If it was 1 or possibly even 2 coaches who had chosen him as a captain i could see some validity in your argument, but it is every coach he has worked under and now the players are quoting him as a great captain, so there is plenty of evidence to suggest his style works.

Absolutely no chance IMO.

Better get used to it as he is ideal replacement for Peacock..

cant see pryce or wilkin being suitable and wellens will be finished soon

Just out of curiosity.
Why?

Why would it be them?

I'd give it to Ellis or Graham before I gave it to SoL, at least they're actually in the team.

Because he isn't even a first choice pick yet, and may never be.

I like him BTW, as I've said many times on here, but to have him as natural successor to Peacock when he hasn't even pegged down a spot is madness.

Well as you can probably guess I have been playing around with a quotation web page today. Here's another one that seems appropriate as regards his "repeated" selection as a captain.

The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

Now given Millward was one of the grand total of two coaches to choose him as captain in his senior career and the other is Noble who many want out, I think their might be something in what Mr. Russell has to say



Dave

ellis would be a good choice as hopefully he'll have improced 10 fold from his spell in aus. i also think graham would be in with a shout too

as for locky being in the team, theres no better english 13 currently playing in sl and the only reason he wasnt picked ahead of sinfield is the leeds connection with TS

in a few years time westerman may be ahead of locky in the pecking order

O'Loughlin arguably would have been picked in the 17 last year had he not been injured. Not only that he was our best player behind Burrow against NZ the year before. As well as being picked in the elite squad i would say O'Loughlins place was assured as Grahams or Ellis's.

Ellis was a good shout...not sure Graham is captain material.

The only reason he didn't go to Aus last year was injury.
He was man of the series v NZ in 2007, and has never had a bad game for England of GB.

I think he'll also get the 13 shirt in the 4 nations this year.

I thought Burrow won it? Either way he has still performed consistantly in GB shirt which is more than that can be said for most.

Wasn't Burrow man of the series?

Pryce and Peacock were our other best players that year IMO.

Ohhhh Sean O'Loughlin
Your the love of my life...

This is probably the first time I've said this, but (to some extent) I agree with BrettKenny.



I feel dirty and will have to go for a shower - I'll be back in a bit to tell you why.

Perhaps they believe it, because they know it to be true. Anyone who has served in the armed forces, for example, will tell you that the best type of leader, the one you would follow into battle even if it was ultimately to your death, is the one prepared to do it themselves. In other words, the one prepared to 'lead by example'. History is littered with just such leaders. The fact that you feel it not to be true about Lockers carries no weight whatsoever as you are not the one playing under him. The only ones qualified to make this assessment with any authority are those who play or have played under him. Such as Radlinski for example. I think I'll side with Rads (or the numerous other players and coaches who say te same thing) rather than BK. A man's argument can often be summed up by those he sides with. IMO, of course....

You're correct he was. Lockers was man of the match in the last game, or was that the year before?

Has everyone forgot what IL said at the fans forum about leadership, or should i say lack of it.? Now this guy owns the club, so 1) he is entitled to his say and 2) you'd like to think he knows what he is talking about.
Our opinions pale into insignificance compared to his.

The problem is though that you are taking a window of his career, he has captained every team he has played in. Except GB, yet.

That Bertrand Russell sounds like a right pretentious git too!

Think it was the third test of that series (when we played about with the team a bit IIRC).

I agree with you though that he is the best 13 at the moment, although Sinfield is in good nick I can't bring myself to pick him given past performance.

I'd go:

Graham
Moore
Peacock
Hock
Ellis
O'Loughlin

Roby
Burgess
Morley
Carvell

But I would not be surprised to see Ellis at 13 to add more size to the pack with something like:

Graham
Moore
Peacock
Hock
Morley
Ellis

Roby
LMS
Burgess
Carvell

I think the quote you're talking bout was aimed at the team as a whole rather than one man. As someone else has quite rightly pointed out, we need leaders across the park as other teams have and as we did in our great teams. One man, no matter how good cannot carry a team. Even Farrell couldn't manage it and he was as close as it has ever come to being the exception that proves the rule. It seems impossible to imagine now, but in our great teams we had the likes of Haney, Edwards and Bell, all great captains in their own right playing in the same team!

That's before we add in the likes of Clarke, Farrell, Betts....oh my god, it doesn't half illustrate the dearth of support our present Captain has. We could barely name another player in the entire squad worthy of the armband! Hardly any wonder he cops so much flack really is it?

I thought IL said we needed more leaders, i do not think he was critical of Locky.


People point towards Faz as a great captain, but for much of his time he had at least 2 often 3-4 experienced International Captains in the squad to support him. At the moment Locky is somewhat a man apart. Riddell was brought in i think for his vocal nature in and around the dressing room but it has not kicked in yet for whatever reason, we need more players with opinions and attitude to back up Locky.

Snap!