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| Quote ="Deano G"Thanks. I'm not sure what point you're making with this - that Saints then had a massive squad including some players you didn't rate?I don't think many Wigan fans (myself included) know enough about the fringe players in the 90s Saints squad to say whether they were on were not up to top-flight RL, though if what you're saying is that you had a small no. of quality players but the vast majority of the squad was NL1 standard then I'd be extremely sceptical.'"
Whilst the bit in bold is a little harsh, that's kind of the point which I was trying to make when I asked you to compare the 1996 Saints team (which did the double) with the Leeds (or Saints) team of last year.
The difference in class is there for all to see and, given that now, on any given week you would be hard pressed to get seven correct predictions with any team capable of beating any other team on any given day, the standard of SL MUST have improved since 1996. QED. |
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| Quote ="Badwanger"Whilst the bit in bold is a little harsh, that's kind of the point which I was trying to make when I asked you to compare the 1996 Saints team (which did the double) with the Leeds (or Saints) team of last year.
The difference in class is there for all to see and, given that now, on any given week you would be hard pressed to get seven correct predictions with any team capable of beating any other team on any given day, the standard of SL MUST have improved since 1996. QED.'"
The point I was making was that I'd be extremely sceptical of an argument that Saints had a small number of great players and the remainder of what would appear to be a big squad were NL1 standard. I haven't yet seen a squad list and am trying to keep an open mind but it just doesn't sound plausible. |
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| Quote ="Deano G"icon_confused.gif:
The point I was making was that I'd be extremely sceptical of an argument that Saints had a small number of great players and the remainder of what would appear to be a big squad were NL1 standard. I haven't yet seen a squad list and am trying to keep an open mind but it just doesn't sound plausible.'"
Squad list from 2006 with ages at start of season in brackets
Prescott (22)
Arnold (18 )
Gibbs (25)
Newlove (24)
Sullivan (27)
Hunte (25)
Hammond (21)
Martyn (24)
Goulding (24)
Perelini (26)
Cunningham (19)
Leathem (18 )
Joynt (24)
Booth (24)
Busby (23)
Veivers (31)
Matautia (26)
Northey (23)
McVey (27)
Fogarty (27)
Pickavance (27)
Chris Morley (22)
McAtee (20)
Paul Anderson - not Baloo! (19)
I think that's everyone. |
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| Quote ="Badwanger"Squad list from 2006 with ages at start of season in brackets
Prescott (22)
Arnold (18 )
Gibbs (25)
Newlove (24)
Sullivan (27)
Hunte (25)
Hammond (21)
Martyn (24)
Goulding (24)
Perelini (26)
Cunningham (19)
Leathem (18 )
Joynt (24)
Booth (24)
Busby (23)
Veivers (31)
Matautia (26)
Northey (23)
McVey (27)
Fogarty (27)
Pickavance (27)
Chris Morley (22)
McAtee (20)
Paul Anderson - not Baloo! (19)
I think that's everyone.'"
All of them good enough to get into the Saints team of Now individually without making you significantly weaker.
8 Backs & 3 forwards!
Where does that leave the Wipe the floor argument now ????
PS
Don't start with the Fitter/Stronger B0ll0x as that would mean that NO players of Yeteryear would ever be better than the players of now and that in 20 years time you can look back and say Every player of Now was Crap! |
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| Quote ="Jukesays"
Prescott (22)
Gibbs (25)
Newlove (24)
Sullivan (27)
Hunte (25)
Hammond (21)
Martyn (24)
Goulding (24)
Perelini (26)
Cunningham (19)
Joynt (24)
All of them good enough to get into the Saints team of Now individually without making you significantly weaker.
8 Backs & 3 forwards!
Where does that leave the Wipe the floor argument now ????
'"
Supposing you are right (even though you have included a 19 year old KC, Hammond and a player who is widely derided by Wiganers as "rubbish"icon_wink.gif, then what about the other 6 who take the field each week and what about the rest of the squad?
If you can't see that the Saints squad of 1996 is significantly weaker than the Saints squad of last year then it's utterly pointless debating this issue further with you. |
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| Quote ="Jukesays"All of them good enough to get into the Saints team of Now individually without making you significantly weaker.
8 Backs & 3 forwards!
Where does that leave the Wipe the floor argument now ????
PS
Don't start with the Fitter/Stronger B0ll0x as that would mean that NO players of Yeteryear would ever be better than the players of now and that in 20 years time you can look back and say Every player of Now was Crap!'"
Tbh, I think Sullivans defensive flaws would be exploited far more now than they were then. And Hammond wouldn't get anywhere near for me. |
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Quote ="Badwanger"Supposing you are right (even though you have included a 19 year old KC, Hammond and a player who is widely derided by Wiganers as "rubbish"icon_wink.gif, then what about the other 6 who take the field each week and what about the rest of the squad?
If you can't see that the Saints squad of 1996 is significantly weaker than the Saints squad of last year then it's utterly pointless debating this issue further with you.'"
Hmmm. The pro-CC people are being clever here, or at least trying to be. First they pick a year far enough in the past that we've probably now forgotten about much of the detail, but one in which their team was the stand-out side. They then attack the quality of their own squad, which makes them seem very reasonable and fair-minded and its difficult (as a Wigan fan) to resist the temptation to join in.
However, this thread - as has been stated repeatedly - isn't about Wigan or Saints but the SDL, so instead of joining the baying hordes of Saints fans attacking their own side I did a little research on a couple of the (allegedly) "NL1 standard" players listed above that I definitely did recall from the mid-90s at Saints, Pickavance and Matautia.
I was interested to see that "The Saints Heritage Society" (I'm tempted to note that "Saints Heritage" is an oxymoron, but will try not to provoke our friends from Merseyside!) don't agree with this assessment.
In fact they are both given great write-ups on their website:
www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=16151
www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=15913
You may remember that Matuatia - this top quality player according to Saints sources - was the third choice centre behind Newlove and Gibbs, a better centre pairing by far than any currently playing in SDL.
Trying to be as fair as possible, I even looked up Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson, who I admit I didn't remember at all. I was expecting him to be a dismal failure. I was surprised, based on comments in this thread, to see that he appears to have been a quality young player who didn't quite make it in the end but was a decent SL player in the mid-90s. It seems that a real disservice has been done to this player by fans of the St Helens club. I must mention in the interests of fairness that he did go on to play for Leigh, presumably seeking first team football, but Paul appears to have been a talented young player, certainly in the mid 90s. Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson was - according to Saints Heritage Society - St Helens' "Young Player of the Year" in 1996 - the year in question - and a "valuable interchange player" in 1997 and 1998.
Oh dear. Another pro-CC argument disintegrates under scrutiny.... |
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Quote ="Badwanger"Supposing you are right (even though you have included a 19 year old KC, Hammond and a player who is widely derided by Wiganers as "rubbish"icon_wink.gif, then what about the other 6 who take the field each week and what about the rest of the squad?
If you can't see that the Saints squad of 1996 is significantly weaker than the Saints squad of last year then it's utterly pointless debating this issue further with you.'"
Hmmm. The pro-CC people are being clever here, or at least trying to be. First they pick a year far enough in the past that we've probably now forgotten about much of the detail, but one in which their team was the stand-out side. They then attack the quality of their own squad, which makes them seem very reasonable and fair-minded and its difficult (as a Wigan fan) to resist the temptation to join in.
However, this thread - as has been stated repeatedly - isn't about Wigan or Saints but the SDL, so instead of joining the baying hordes of Saints fans attacking their own side I did a little research on a couple of the (allegedly) "NL1 standard" players listed above that I definitely did recall from the mid-90s at Saints, Pickavance and Matautia.
I was interested to see that "The Saints Heritage Society" (I'm tempted to note that "Saints Heritage" is an oxymoron, but will try not to provoke our friends from Merseyside!) don't agree with this assessment.
In fact they are both given great write-ups on their website:
www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=16151
www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=15913
You may remember that Matuatia - this top quality player according to Saints sources - was the third choice centre behind Newlove and Gibbs, a better centre pairing by far than any currently playing in SDL.
Trying to be as fair as possible, I even looked up Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson, who I admit I didn't remember at all. I was expecting him to be a dismal failure. I was surprised, based on comments in this thread, to see that he appears to have been a quality young player who didn't quite make it in the end but was a decent SL player in the mid-90s. It seems that a real disservice has been done to this player by fans of the St Helens club. I must mention in the interests of fairness that he did go on to play for Leigh, presumably seeking first team football, but Paul appears to have been a talented young player, certainly in the mid 90s. Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson was - according to Saints Heritage Society - St Helens' "Young Player of the Year" in 1996 - the year in question - and a "valuable interchange player" in 1997 and 1998.
Oh dear. Another pro-CC argument disintegrates under scrutiny.... | |
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Quote ="Deano G"Hmmm. The pro-CC people are being clever here, or at least trying to be. First they pick a year far enough in the past that we've probably now forgotten about much of the detail, but one in which their team was the stand-out side. They then attack the quality of their own squad, which makes them seem very reasonable and fair-minded and its difficult (as a Wigan fan) to resist the temptation to join in.
However, this thread - as has been stated repeatedly - isn't about Wigan or Saints but the SDL, so instead of joining the baying hordes of Saints fans attacking their own side I did a little research on a couple of the (allegedly) "NL1 standard" players listed above that I definitely did recall from the mid-90s at Saints, Pickavance and Matautia.
I was interested to see that "The Saints Heritage Society" (I'm tempted to note that "Saints Heritage" is an oxymoron, but will try not to provoke our friends from Merseyside!) don't agree with this assessment.
In fact they are both given great write-ups on their website:
www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=16151
www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=15913
You may remember that Matuatia - this top quality player according to Saints sources - was the third choice centre behind Newlove and Gibbs, a better centre pairing by far than any currently playing in SDL.
Trying to be as fair as possible, I even looked up Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson, who I admit I didn't remember at all. I was expecting him to be a dismal failure. I was surprised, based on comments in this thread, to see that he appears to have been a quality young player who didn't quite make it in the end but was a decent SL player in the mid-90s. It seems that a real disservice has been done to this player by fans of the St Helens club. I must mention in the interests of fairness that he did go on to play for Leigh, presumably seeking first team football, but Paul appears to have been a talented young player, certainly in the mid 90s. Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson was - according to Saints Heritage Society - St Helens' "Young Player of the Year" in 1996 - the year in question - and a "valuable interchange player" in 1997 and 1998.
Oh dear. Another pro-CC argument disintegrates under scrutiny....'"
You think that a player that you say was classed as talented in 1996, but wouldn't even get a look in today, is supporting your stance?
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Quote ="Deano G"Hmmm. The pro-CC people are being clever here, or at least trying to be. First they pick a year far enough in the past that we've probably now forgotten about much of the detail, but one in which their team was the stand-out side. They then attack the quality of their own squad, which makes them seem very reasonable and fair-minded and its difficult (as a Wigan fan) to resist the temptation to join in.
However, this thread - as has been stated repeatedly - isn't about Wigan or Saints but the SDL, so instead of joining the baying hordes of Saints fans attacking their own side I did a little research on a couple of the (allegedly) "NL1 standard" players listed above that I definitely did recall from the mid-90s at Saints, Pickavance and Matautia.
I was interested to see that "The Saints Heritage Society" (I'm tempted to note that "Saints Heritage" is an oxymoron, but will try not to provoke our friends from Merseyside!) don't agree with this assessment.
In fact they are both given great write-ups on their website:
www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=16151
www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... &num=15913
You may remember that Matuatia - this top quality player according to Saints sources - was the third choice centre behind Newlove and Gibbs, a better centre pairing by far than any currently playing in SDL.
Trying to be as fair as possible, I even looked up Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson, who I admit I didn't remember at all. I was expecting him to be a dismal failure. I was surprised, based on comments in this thread, to see that he appears to have been a quality young player who didn't quite make it in the end but was a decent SL player in the mid-90s. It seems that a real disservice has been done to this player by fans of the St Helens club. I must mention in the interests of fairness that he did go on to play for Leigh, presumably seeking first team football, but Paul appears to have been a talented young player, certainly in the mid 90s. Paul (NOT BALOO) Anderson was - according to Saints Heritage Society - St Helens' "Young Player of the Year" in 1996 - the year in question - and a "valuable interchange player" in 1997 and 1998.
Oh dear. Another pro-CC argument disintegrates under scrutiny....'"
You think that a player that you say was classed as talented in 1996, but wouldn't even get a look in today, is supporting your stance?
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| Quote ="Deano G"Snip'"
Simple question, is the second team significantly stronger than the first:
1 S Prescott
2 D Arnold
3 S Gibbs
4 P Newlove
5 A Sullivan
6 K Hammond
7 B Goulding
8 A Perelini
9 K Cunningham
10 A Fogerty
11 C Joynt
12 S Booth
13 D Busby
14 A Northey
15 I Pickavance
16 V Matatutia
17 T Martyn
or
1 P Wellens
2 A Gardner
3 J Lyon
4 W Talau
5 F Meli
6 L Pryce
7 S Long
8 J Graham
9 K Cunningham
10 J Cayless
11 L Gilmour
12 J Wilkin
13 P Sculthorpe
14 P Anderson
15 M Bennett
16 J Roby
17 M Faasavalu
The 1996 pack would get absolutely mullered by the SDL communist capped 2006 pack, and there are players like Vinnie Anderson, Nick Fozzard, Jason Hooper and Paul Clough who don't make the best 17.
You could do a similar exercise with most teams, with the exception of freefalling Wigan (which is the reason why these Super League is rubbish threads always seem to appear on THIS board), and get similar results. The best team is better now. The mid table teams are better now. The worst teams are better now. |
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| Quote ="Billinge_Lump"You think that a player that you say was classed as talented in 1996, but wouldn't even get a look in today, is supporting your stance?
'"
You said these people weren't any good, despite what appears to be a good try scoring record at top level for Matautia (third choice centre) and a glowing reference from your own Heritage Society for Pickavance. One of the weaker players was Young Player of the Year in 1996, the year in question. Bizarre. |
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| Quote ="Deano G"You said these people weren't any good, despite what appears to be a good try scoring record at top level for Matautia (third choice centre)'"
Matautia was rubbish. Surely you remember him?!
Quote ="Deano G"and a glowing reference from your own Heritage Society for Pickavance.'"
Pickavance?! Are you seriously comparing him to the props of Graham/Cayless/Fozzard/Baloo in 2006?
Quote ="Deano G"One of the weaker players was Young Player of the Year in 1996, the year in question. Bizarre.'"
Young player of the year?! He played 2 games out of 30 in 1996! Maybe young player of the year in the reserves/academy or whatever it was then, but certainly not the first team with a 19 year old KC playing every week. |
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Simple question, is the second team significantly stronger than the first:
1 S Prescott
2 D Arnold
3 S Gibbs
4 P Newlove
5 A Sullivan
6 K Hammond
7 B Goulding
8 A Perelini
9 K Cunningham
10 A Fogerty
11 C Joynt
12 S Booth
13 D Busby
14 A Northey
15 I Pickavance
16 V Matatutia
17 T Martyn
or
1 P Wellens
2 A Gardner
3 J Lyon
4 W Talau
5 F Meli
6 L Pryce
7 S Long
8 J Graham
9 K Cunningham
10 J Cayless
11 L Gilmour
12 J Wilkin
13 P Sculthorpe
14 P Anderson
15 M Bennett
16 J Roby
17 M Faasavalu
The 1996 pack would get absolutely mullered by the SDL communist capped 2006 pack, and there are players like Vinnie Anderson, Nick Fozzard, Jason Hooper and Paul Clough who don't make the best 17.
You could do a similar exercise with most teams, with the exception of freefalling Wigan (which is the reason why these Super League is rubbish threads always seem to appear on THIS board), and get similar results. The best team is better now. The mid table teams are better now. The worst teams are better now.'"
As I've said, I don't recall enough about the Saints team of 1996 to be able to comment in detail. I am deeply sceptical of your arguments regarding that team though, given the rubbishing you gave to some obviously talented players. Saying that the Matautias and Pickavances of 96 would not be able to hold down a place in SDL is ludicrous and leaves you with very little credibility I'm afraid.
Let's talk about more recent history which we all recall more clearly. I note you've picked the 2006 Saints side rather than the 2009 squad to compare against the 1996 squad. The current Saints side is much, much weaker than the 2006 side The Leeds and Hull KR 2009 squads are likewise much weaker than the 2006 Hull and Bradfords sides.
After years of predictions that the CC is "finally working", it does appear to have had some effect: we are now seeing the results of the "level playing field" strategy. Unfortunately the present and the future is the mediocrity of the Soopah Doopah League.
All those pro-CC supporters should have listened to the old adage, be careful what you wish for (because you just might get it). |
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Matautia was rubbish. Surely you remember him?!
Pickavance?! Are you seriously comparing him to the props of Graham/Cayless/Fozzard/Baloo in 2006?
Young player of the year?! He played 2 games out of 30 in 1996!
Maybe young player of the year in the reserves/academy or whatever it was then, but certainly not the first team with a 19 year old KC playing every week.'"
Why you pivking the 2006 team???
What's wrong with the 2009 team????
Why pick Hammond at 6 when you know MArtyn was 1st choice 6????
At least 5 of the backs would get in over the Saints team of 2009!
And I would argue that 3 of the forwards are better as well! |
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Matautia was rubbish. Surely you remember him?!
Pickavance?! Are you seriously comparing him to the props of Graham/Cayless/Fozzard/Baloo in 2006?
Young player of the year?! He played 2 games out of 30 in 1996!
Maybe young player of the year in the reserves/academy or whatever it was then, but certainly not the first team with a 19 year old KC playing every week.'"
According to the Saints Heritage Society Matautia scored 24 tries from 55 appearances (presumably a number of these appearances will be as substitute given the very talented centres Saints had at the time). But according to you he was "rubbish". I couldn't muster the energy to read any further into your post after that, I'm afraid. |
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CBA going back over old posts but I remember Rogues posting the teams for the 95 WC Semi England/Wales and comparing it to today's options available for GB!
Forwards??? I'd agree we have a similar number if not slightly better options now.
Backs!!! Light years in difference!
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| Quote ="Deano G"As I've said, I don't recall enough about the Saints team of 1996 to be able to comment in detail. '"
If you don't recall the early SL, pre-cap teams - how can you expect anyone to pay attention to your assertions of falling standards in SDL? |
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| Quote ="Jukesays"CBA going back over old posts but I remember Rogues posting the teams for the 95 WC Semi England/Wales and comparing it to today's options available for GB!'"
Why not compare it to the pre CC 2000 World Cup shambles of a team? Was that the CC's fault too?
Fact is our problems relate to junior development and predate the CC introduction by a long stretch.
Thankfully, the juniors coming through now in the communist capped SDL look far better than we have had in the recent past. |
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| Quote ="Deano G"According to the Saints Heritage Society Matautia scored 24 tries from 55 appearances (presumably a number of these appearances will be as substitute given the very talented centres Saints had at the time). But according to you he was "rubbish". I couldn't muster the energy to read any further into your post after that, I'm afraid.'"
It is obvious from your championing of Vila that you don't remember him and I imagine you have no stats for his missed tackles, errors, penalties, red cards and suspensions. |
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| Sep 2002 | 22 years | |
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| Quote ="Jukesays"Why pick Hammond at 6 when you know MArtyn was 1st choice 6????'"
Another who has no idea. Check the line ups in 1996. |
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| Quote ="post"Yes. teams are scared of playing rugby because of the consequences of one mistake.
Add to that refs dissallowing perfecty good tries due to obstruction??????? when it is clearly not and them going to the screen for every try exept when its against wigan. They should make the salary cap half of what you earn and not cap it at 1.6million. If Wigan made 6 Milion they could only spend the same as Huddersfield who were making 3.6 million.
The salary cap was put inplace to stop clubs going bust, that works but now it is to dillute the comp and through that players and teams aren't getting any better.
For Instance Ben Westwood 5 years ago was centre for Whitehaven and now he is in the 'Elite England Squad'. Ha ha ha Ben Westwood is crap!!!!!!!! Same with Fa'asavalu, no skill whatsover he is just muscle and that aint enough to beat the aussies.
If the salary cap only allowed the clubs to spend half of what they eraned you would get better teams e'g Wigan,St Helens, Leeds, Warrington. Hull Kr and Hull FC etc and if you have a good side with superstars in and you add to that young british players they will improve ten fold rather put them in an average team in an average league where anyone can beat anyone because the temas in the league are made up of average steady percentage based teams who play boring rugby.
They say teams can blood youngsters with the relegation being scrapped but if a team in the league say salford weren't making much money due to them having a small fan base and not making enough money to get the right players they would be bottom of the league and you could blood the youngsters against them as well as challenge cup games.
Change the salary cap so teams can spend half of what they earn and that is it because clubs aren't getting rewarded for making profits etc.
Communism at its finest!!!!!'"
some of what u have said I would agree with but the highlighted part is bollox. What your saying basically is that the smaller teams stay small so the big teams i.e wigan leeds hull can just use them to give your youngsters a run out  What some of competition are you looking for then one like the scottish prem where only 2 teams can win !!! |
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Another who has no idea. Check the line ups in 1996.'"
CBA but I know that Tommy played in the 96 CC Final & He missed all of the previous season through injury & when fit he was the 1st choice 6 at Saints! |
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| Quote ="Jukesays"CBA but I know that Tommy played in the 96 CC Final & He missed all of the previous season through injury & when fit he was the 1st choice 6 at Saints!'"
You don't know that at all.
Challenge Cup Final - Hammond stand off, Martyn on the bench.
Hammond played 29 out of 30 games in 1996.
You have no clue. |
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"You don't know that at all.
Challenge Cup Final - Hammond stand off, Martyn on the bench.
Hammond played 29 out of 30 games in 1996.
You have no clue.'"
Did Tommy play in the 96 cup final????
Did Tommy miss the WHOLE of 95/96 Season (Trunkated Season or whatever it was called) through injury?
Was Tomyy, When Fit, 1st choice 6 at Saints???
And TBH wether Hammond played there or didn't play there for 1 season you don't seem to have answered How 11 of the team that you say would get mullered by Today's team (Even though you keep posting the 2006 team and comapring it to that) would still get in today's 17 without Weakening it and in most instances Improve it! |
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| Quote ="Jukesays"Did Tommy play in the 96 cup final????'"
Yes, from the bench behind Hammond as per my team.
Quote ="Jukesays"Did Tommy miss the WHOLE of 95/96 Season (Trunkated Season or whatever it was called) through injury?'"
And?
Quote ="Jukesays"Was Tomyy, When Fit, 1st choice 6 at Saints???'"
Not in 1996, Hammond was.
Quote ="Jukesays"you don't seem to have answered How 11 of the team that you say would get mullered by Today's team would still get in today's 17 without Weakening it and in most instances Improve it!'"
Name them, and compare them to our current best in the same position. |
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"You don't know that at all.
Challenge Cup Final - Hammond stand off, Martyn on the bench.
Hammond played 29 out of 30 games in 1996.
You have no clue.'"
So, let's get this right. Hammond was playing well enough in 1996 to keep Martyn - who many Saints fans rate as one of your all time greats and was then in his mid 20s - on the bench, and that's evidence of a decline in the standard of your team?
Oh dear.
You're just digging an ever deeper hole for yourself, I'm afraid. |
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What some of competition are you looking for then one like the scottish prem where only 2 teams can win !!!
