Saints fan weighing in so take it as you will



Wigan seem to be at using the same recruitment manual as Saints have in recent times up until the last season; projects mixed in with kids (and complete flops). Since Holbrook Saints have started to complement this strategy with a genuine NRL quality player (first Barba, the Naiqama). It gave our recruitment a complete different spin and has positivity flowing through the club, which feeds into and spurs on the kids - hence we’re on a bit of an upward spiral at the moment. Richardson’s running and stepping style is mimicking Barbas more and more with every passing game!

Warrington on the other hand are all about the here and now and forget the bringing players through and projects type signings



Oh, and I’ll sit on the fence about the wingers thing; Wigan and Saints use their wingers in incredibly different ways which makes comparisons very difficult. That being said, Makinsons defence is first class, a great finisher, solid under the high ball and his weakest area (returning the ball) has improved dramatically in recent years. There’s very few in SL I would trade him for.

Be interesting to see how Saints maintain they're good form if Barba leaves at the end of the season. Gus Gould naming the Sharks as a possible home for Ben in 2019.
I genuinely mean this, it will be a shame to see Barba leave. He's a joy to watch and is adding some real entertainment to SL, even if that means helping out the Saints!

Johstone is a fair call, he's quality. He did get dropped earlier in the season supposedly for not playing well enough but I haven't seen enough of him this year to know why Chris Chester made that call.

In terms of creating chances, I mean when Marshall makes a break it doesn't end with him, as it does for quite a few highly rated wingers. In my opinion when Marshall makes a clean break he's better than most of his rivals at creating a try scoring opportunity out of it, even if he doesn't finish the move himself. His ability to kick the ball accurately at pace, pick out accurate passes to supporting players and produce offloads in the tackle is something that shouldn't be overlooked. I know there's more of a focus these days on being flawless defensively and making good carries (and that's what makes Davies so impressive) but Marshall's attacking game is definitely worthy of high praise.

With regards to tackles we can agree to disagree. I happen to think it's an aspect of his game that he's greatly improved this year. I don't think Marshall has the same potential as Grace though, and I think Marshall will never properly become number 1 winger at a top Super League club simply because he's always compensating for his lack of height. No matter how well he plays there is always a greater chance that he'll be beaten in the air or overpowered by a bigger winger. I do like that Marshall doesn't let his head drop, and that after a bad mistake against Wire he responded with some good takes under pressure. I just don't think the effort will be enough to reach the level of consistency required.

Well put. I respect your opinion on this. I don't fully see how you can justify the 'breaks don't end with him' 'kick the ball accurately at pace' etc but I will say this, he's one of few players in attack who gets me off my seat when he's in open space, has the pace and ability to make something happen, and often find the try line, his attack has never been an issue with me.

In terms of age, in puts it into comparison when you look at other players around the same age as Marshall. Davies and Grace are younger, Burgess is only a year older. Whereas the likes of Tom Johnstone, Greg Minikin, Ash Hanley are all the same age, all are more complete outside backs.

I agree re the comments of how Marshall will never be a top 1st choice winger. Which is a crying shame. I'd love a winger from wigan to be the best around.

17stone 6lb according the club website.

TT is 17 stone 13lb, as is Sammy Kibula.

Hardly small.

Joel is next biggest at 16 stone 9lb, Sutton, Bretherton and Navarette are at 16 stone 3lb and Benny Flower, Caine Barnes and Jack Wells at 16 stone.

The worst thing about that was the rest of the team just standing and watching instead of giving Marshall some help.

First choice winger due to injuries to others reinforces my point which was the fact that someone at the very start of his career has already accomplished something extraordinary. Not really sure how you feel that contradicts it but whatever.

There's nothing skewed about asking for the markers by which you make the claim that Makinson is 'head and shoulders' above Davies. Last time I checked they didn't skew statistics in order to support one club or another. Yet again you fail to provide them. We're definitely starting to get a pattern here.

At least you recognize it as hyperbole. That's progress I guess. Maybe your next step it to recognize using it doesn't make it true.

Finally : "Head and shoulders" my ! Unless you care to prove otherwise of course...

He is similar to Budgie in that way. Both have time on the ball to take options while running at pace, nether are "head down run until tackled" types of player. It's a pleasure to watch.



The best taker of a high ball I have ever seen is Steve Hampson and he was a comparative midget. Players just gave up trying to kick to him. It's not impossible for smaller players to develop a technique to jump in a way to offset a height disadvantage.

I could look through stats and figures and achievements re Davies and Makinson, but the last time I played your game highlighting facts/figures re Lockers and Bateman you emailed me privately asking me to stop as it was becoming a two man thread after justifying all my points. (life is far too short to get back into that one!) I think you'll find that's more of a pattern than me failing to support my points.
Last time I also pointed out that stats only provided information of very definable measures, i.e meters made etc, it's so baffling that someone would hang their hat on stats when there's far more complexities to a game, players performance, I'm assuming you do actually watch games and not just read the stats after the fact? If you really want this discussion, please feel free to mention it on the Saints board, I'm sure one or two of their fans would be happy to keep you entertained .

I actually regret going into the ins and outs of the Bateman/Lockers debate. I pointed out how stats only provided a short sighted overview, yet I still played your game justifying and supporting all my points. But furthermore because it seemed I was against Lockers, which couldn't be further from the truth; for me, he's the best player we have.

PS Hyberbole? "someone at the very start of his career has already accomplished something extraordinary" -Phuzzy on Tom Davies, June 2018.

I was gobsmacked with G Williams, he's better than that. He's not been a shadow of himself this season has he?

I agree. Felt sorry the lad. Can never question his effort or desire.

Is pretty good for it though FMC.
He looks to make the heavy yards and have sweet distribution too. It's makes me smile watching his dummy half passing he makes on occasions.

The point about teammates not helping Marshall out is a fair one; thinking back, it seemed to go on for ages. It was he who chased back in a desperate effort the last time we were humiliated by an after-the-hooter try, as I recall.

Size alone is not enough. My own clubs pack (Wakefield) is frankly massive yet there is no evidence so far this seaon that they could dominate anybody.

For whatever reason the attitude is all wrong at the moment with the backs shouldering far to much of the work.

We have pace in abundance but we simply can’t use it because the pack isn’t winning the battle up front.

Ditto mobility, potentially we have that in spades but that’s not happening either.

Packs win games and big and mobile as our pack is on paper on grass it’s totally lacklustre.

If you play it hard down the middle against us you could easily win because we are soft in sad to say.

Knowing our luck we will buy some huge props in the season they change the substitution rule. What the sports needs is more Grahams and Gansons, tough players who play consistently well season after season and are happy to stay at a club for a long period, but they are a rare breed.

If you mean 'right now' as in 2018 fair enough, but Wire have been trying for ten years (with mixed success) to bring players through the ranks. Penny and Riley on the wings, Johnstone at full back, O'Brien and Patton in the halves, lots of forwards. Some of these lads played dozens of first team games but ultimately proved not good enough (or still trying to prove it) for a team with ambition to be right at the top. What we do have currently are Cooper, Currie and probably Livett who have made it through.

It well could be our playing style over the size or mobility of our props. As previously discussed we seem to have some very set tactics at Wigan. Wingers used often on tackles 1 and 2 on exit sets, usually to use speed to evade 'A' defenders and props who are instructed to 'find their front' after contact and have a quick play the ball to catch the defensive line off-guard.

I feel sorry for some of our props under our coaching system, they are made to look like they have no leg drive or fight after first contact.

Could be a style of play issue.

No size or intimidation factor


I think that you will find quite a few barmaids now feel intimidated whenever the Tomkins boys enter the pubs. Add

You let you're best asset go....Kear.
Hudds Cats have, KR know where they're at and now Widnes are fixing it....Wakefield haven't.
You'll be hoping Widnes can't and Salford dont, because Wakefield have one or two interesting backs for 2019.

No they haven't, especially Widnes! I admit we are not there yet but we are still well ahead of all those and that includes Hudds though they have clearly rallied of late.

As for Kear, maybe, maybe not that's pure conjecture.

The fact is we should be better up front than we are and that lands at the feet of the players IMO.

Put Ben Barba in Wigans team and our younger lads will be better than saints young lads.The difference between the two teams at the minute is Barba is winning games for saints.

Yes.

100% correct

There’s still some bang average players in that Saints side who are riding a wave created by Barba. Look at Sunday, they played a really depleted Hull side and Barba had an off day. They won by the skin of their teeth after scoring two try’s when Hull we’re down to 11 men and had another ten minutes playing against 12 men.

They’ll probably win the lot this year if he stays fit but take him out and I’d be pretty certain it wouldn’t take long for cracks to start appearing.

You ought to make the split on early season form but Wakefield have not raised their game since that time. Huddersfield might catch you....but finishing 8th will save you because if you dont make it, in the middle 8s you will lose more than you'll win...which I'm not happy about. Trinity is my 2nd team.

Tomorrow’s game is crucial no doubt as apart from the points we need two wins on the bounce. If we do this i think our season will be transformed.

People seem to think we’ve been terrible this season and we simply haven’t. Five of our defeats were by six points or less which is hardly panic stations.

What we have not been able to do so far this season is find that real purple patch, those half dozen games most team have during a season.

I don’t want to tempt fate but if you want to find form now is the time to start doing it. We’ll see if it starts tomorrow.