More than anything, that would probably be the biggest achievement, simply because it's the hardest to win, especially from a POV of motivation. You gave to consistently get yourself up for going winning to Cas, Wakey, Salford, Hull etc and winning games and we're not always great at that. I'd take either of the other two over it but it probably would be the most impressive achievement in 2025 if we won the LLS.

The thing that struck me about Robertson was how positively he reacted when he did make mistakes. It never seemed to drive him into his shell, and I get the impression his mental attitude is great, so i have high hopes for him as a future international. But I agree, a sensible amount of game time for his development will be crucial.

Regarding Knowles, I think the difference in the team's performance when he was available and when he was out was really noticeable, so I can see why Wellens would do everything he can to keep him. Lees may be harder to keep and would be a loss, as I rate him very highly as well, but I think he is more replaceable. He's a real coaches' player. I can recall lots of fans questioning how much he really brings, but you can see that Wellens and Wane both really rate him. He's just really consistent and has a fantastic engine.

This will be a huge season for Wellens, but I still think he can make a success of things. I'm not sure what represents a minimum acceptable season for Saints this year? Do they have to win a trophy, or would making a final playing better rugby and showing progress be enough? Not sure. I don't personally see them as challenging for the absolute top this coming year, but equally, I don't see them doing a Leeds and dropping out of the play-offs altogether. As with almost everyone, a lot will depend on fitness and form of key players and new signings.

The coaching situation needs sorting. Briers has a year longer on his contract than Wellens. Is that so if Wellens starts badly next season, Briers steps in? Who knows.

The big issue though is the Recruitment for 2026. There could be a lot of players leaving in 2025 and a lot of cap space available. Hurrell, Paasi, Mbye, Sironen maybe Bell. Then there's the likes of Davies, Ritson, Bennison. That's not even the worst case scenario of Lees or Knowles leaving. Or both.

However the coach for 2026 will want input and if its not Wellens then they will need to know who it is early in 2025. If it is Wellens again then they are putting faith in him but again it may only be another 1 year deal depending how we go this season. If they offer him 2 or 3 years and we flop spectacularly then we are in dire straits.

The decision as to who the coach is for 2026 needs to be a good one.

I think Saints will finish in the top 4 but there are clearly a lot of question marks going forward. A big one is the future of Paul Wellens but ultimately the stars of the squad have aged and it will take time to replace them. Roby, LMS and Makinson have all gone whilst Lomax, Walmsley, Paasi and Hurrell are approaching the end. Clark, Sironen, Percival, Batchelor and Bell all in their 30s. If Lees and/or Knowles go as well it would be a nightmare. There are some promising players coming through but likely 2-3 years away from potentially being able to lead a title winning squad.

Other concerns are the lack of a specialist kicker and how injury prone the squad has been over the last couple of years.

Tristan Sailor has to be a success for them and I actually hope that he is one - Super League needs more stars and he definitely seems to have some X factor.

On a side note it's interesting to see how all of the big stars are back training at the majority of SL clubs but it looks like ours will only be back after Christmas. Completely understandable given the number of games we played but I think it also shows a level of trust in the squad to keep themselves fit outside of the club. Giving the likes of French and Field some extra time back home has definitely been a smart strategy.

Thinking of recruiting players is pretty scary stuff at the minute and gets scarier by the year. The quality just isn't coming over from the NRL anymore and as it gets bigger, the more we're going to be left with the likes of Waqa Blake. You'll get the odd diamond, who is on the edge of the NRL coming in but it seems to becoming the case now where imports with any sort of profile are older than we've ever seen (JWH and Rapana) , are unknown or there isn't much about them. I look at Saints signing Sironen 3 years ago and that signing won't happen anymore IMO. He'd played 130 NRL games, County Origin etc and there will be enough teams in the comp to offer that profile of player a good deal. You look to lesser profile players like Ellis and Field, who were fringe NRL players and even they will be tough to get and if you do, it may just be for a year or so (if they do well) before they head back.

Saints and Wigan with their academies will be in the best place to ride that but you wouldn't want to be having to do too much recruitment each year.

Saints need to retain Knowles and Lees because finding federation trained players will no be easy however, they will need to pay them handsomely and that will restrict what can be spent elsewhere.

The biggest problem Saints seem to have for me is they seem to have put all their eggs in this 'golden generation' basket but there is only 2 of them any good in Stephens and Robertson. That's normal, a full crop never makes it. It is usually one or two. So these old players they are expecting to be transitioned out will make them even weaker. They have poor recruitment and a short sighted future plan from Mike Rush. I would be worried if i was a Saints fan................... Which thank god i am not

[quote="Cherry_Warrior":kcspyzz6]The biggest problem Saints seem to have for me is they seem to have put all their eggs in this 'golden generation' basket but there is only 2 of them any good in Stephens and Robertson. That's normal, a full crop never makes it. It is usually one or two. So these old players they are expecting to be transitioned out will make them even weaker. They have poor recruitment and a short sighted future plan from Mike Rush. I would be worried if i was a Saints fan................... Which thank god i am not [/quote:kcspyzz6] I think that's a bit unfair. Last year was a poor environment for any young lads to thrive. With injuries and some hammerings, confidence was low and there weren't enough experienced heads around any of the younger lads to support. Whitby is highly rated but made his debut at home to HKR when they absolutely smashed us and Wellens (not for the first time) got his selections horribly wrong. Vaughan is another who was Lancashire and England Academy captain but struggled at times especially when partnered with Ritson. He needs some size on him and there is still a question mark over whether or not he will play centre or second row. Dagnall is another who whilst he hasn't had his chance yet, looks very promising and has done well for Lancashire and England Academy. I think Rush was wrong with his comments as he gave the impression that we had a Class of 92 and then of course we struggled badly last season. Our recruitment has been poor the last couple of seasons admittedly but over the last 6-8 years we have recruited really well. Overseas signings like Sironen, Matautia, Coote and Paasi have been some of our best and then we got some gems like Batchelor and Bentley from the Championship- (Bentley at Saints was good as has Batchelor bar last season) Even before that we bought Walmsley from the Championship. James Bell has been another good signing so I think more often than not we have got it right. That said we have got it badly wrong for this season with not signing one if not two centres and at least another prop and it looks like McManus has misled us by saying we always spend up to the cap as it looks like Matautia isn't being replaced. Sadly (for us) it looks as though financially we just haven't got the money at the moment. The Covid loans are really hurting us which has affected recruitment

[quote="Stu M":vjvsbuer]I think that's a bit unfair. Last year was a poor environment for any young lads to thrive. With injuries and some hammerings, confidence was low and there weren't enough experienced heads around any of the younger lads to support. Whitby is highly rated but made his debut at home to HKR when they absolutely smashed us and Wellens (not for the first time) got his selections horribly wrong. Vaughan is another who was Lancashire and England Academy captain but struggled at times especially when partnered with Ritson. He needs some size on him and there is still a question mark over whether or not he will play centre or second row. Dagnall is another who whilst he hasn't had his chance yet, looks very promising and has done well for Lancashire and England Academy. I think Rush was wrong with his comments as he gave the impression that we had a Class of 92 and then of course we struggled badly last season. Our recruitment has been poor the last couple of seasons admittedly but over the last 6-8 years we have recruited really well. Overseas signings like Sironen, Matautia, Coote and Paasi have been some of our best and then we got some gems like Batchelor and Bentley from the Championship- (Bentley at Saints was good as has Batchelor bar last season) Even before that we bought Walmsley from the Championship. James Bell has been another good signing so I think more often than not we have got it right. That said we have got it badly wrong for this season with not signing one if not two centres and at least another prop and it looks like McManus has misled us by saying we always spend up to the cap as it looks like Matautia isn't being replaced. Sadly (for us) it looks as though financially we just haven't got the money at the moment. The Covid loans are really hurting us which has affected recruitment[/quote:vjvsbuer] I think the financial situation should be concerning for Saints. I am not signed up to the golden generation though and, even if they all show promise this season I think Saints will come up short. Robertson and Stephens have shown promise but the others have not been tested at SL level. With a plethora of players off contract there looks like there will be a high turnover of players unless the seasoned pros can turn around their form from last season, the problem is where are their replacements going to come from? In addition, failure to secure Lees and Knowles would leave a gaping hole in the pack and the Welsby to the NRL should be of concern. I suppose time will tell.

Didn't want to start a new thread for this so thought I would put it on here.. I've mentioned before on here that I am a Utd fan and coming out of the ground last night, what struck me was how normal fans were. No- one was sulking or moody, it was just people chatting normally, laughing, talking about plans for New Year. The result was expected (or at least not a shock) This is the situation Utd are now in and whilst I don't for one minute think we will be relegated, we are in the mix and Amorim was right to discuss it. This got me thinking about Wigan... In the 2006 season ( I think it was) when you were down at the bottom, how did it change you as fans? Obviously Wigan like Utd are a huge club and it seems unthinkable but I know some Wigan fans that said they enjoyed that season more than most because the fans really got behind the team and every game felt like a Final. Clearly you wouldn't swap that season for anything before or after but do you think that the shock had a positive impact on the club?

Apart from last year, 2006 was probably my favourite from the SL era. The way the team and fans bonded in common cause was like nothing I'd seen before or since (up until the advent of Matt Peet who's managed to achieve a similar feeling whilst also winning!) I'm not sure I can claim it had too many positives going forward although crowds did rise during that season. Good as it was, I'd always choose winning everything, obviously, but it was a great season in it's own way.

[quote="Stu M":1gyk2mko]Didn't want to start a new thread for this so thought I would put it on here.. I've mentioned before on here that I am a Utd fan and coming out of the ground last night, what struck me was how normal fans were. No- one was sulking or moody, it was just people chatting normally, laughing, talking about plans for New Year. The result was expected (or at least not a shock) This is the situation Utd are now in and whilst I don't for one minute think we will be relegated, we are in the mix and Amorim was right to discuss it. This got me thinking about Wigan... In the 2006 season ( I think it was) when you were down at the bottom, how did it change you as fans? Obviously Wigan like Utd are a huge club and it seems unthinkable but I know some Wigan fans that said they enjoyed that season more than most because the fans really got behind the team and every game felt like a Final. Clearly you wouldn't swap that season for anything before or after but do you think that the shock had a positive impact on the club?[/quote:1gyk2mko] The first half of that season was absolutely awful, we'd let a very good team either get too long in the tooth or they'd gone off to RU, add on we'd lost Central Park and there was a general malaise around the club. We can't give Bran Noble enough credit for what he did, the atmosphere did change and it really was a fantastic turn around in the second half of the season. Looking back I think it's fair to say that season caused a total reset at the club and we're reaping the benefits now with how they've re-engaged with the town. Next season will be a challenge, we've got a massive target on our backs now but I think we've got the squad to be right up there again, getting through that six or seven weeks without French/Field relatively unscathed last season should give them the confidence to know they can handle a bit of adversity.

I think it gave us the shock we needed to make some positive decisions in better recruitment and overall direction of the club and it fired up the fanbase which was tending more towards apathy. I think we would have continued to stumble along for quite a number of years if we hadn't had that dip. The big difference between Wigan and Man U is that Man U have no soul left at the club. Liverpool and Arsenal still have it, they know what the club stands for and it's place in the community, what it means to the fans. Wigan RL live and breath it everyday from top to bottom thanks to Radders, Peet, Lenegan and now Mike Danson. The partial buyout by Jim Ratcliffe at Man U has made things even worse, cutting contributions to player welfare charity is another sign of the petty, short term vision that shows he has no understanding what binds a club to its fanbase. They are on a downward spiral with no sign of any plan to get them out of it and judging by the decisions made to date haven't got the management that understands how to do it.

[quote="Big Steve":2g3tuopf]I think it gave us the shock we needed to make some positive decisions in better recruitment and overall direction of the club and it fired up the fanbase which was tending more towards apathy. I think we would have continued to stumble along for quite a number of years if we hadn't had that dip. The big difference between Wigan and Man U is that Man U have no soul left at the club. Liverpool and Arsenal still have it, they know what the club stands for and it's place in the community, what it means to the fans. Wigan RL live and breath it everyday from top to bottom thanks to Radders, Peet, Lenegan and now Mike Danson. The partial buyout by Jim Ratcliffe at Man U has made things even worse, cutting contributions to player welfare charity is another sign of the petty, short term vision that shows he has no understanding what binds a club to its fanbase. They are on a downward spiral with no sign of any plan to get them out of it and judging by the decisions made to date haven't got the management that understands how to do it.[/quote:2g3tuopf] they had a UTD fan on Sky Sports news yesterday , i think he was from one of the fanzines and he echoed what you are saying about decision to cut costs have been at the expense of the clubs standing in the community, when the ownership changed I thought the only change would be mores sports science based with ideas taken from the Ineos cycling team. It now seems more about boosting share holder benefits

[quote="Stu M":13ij38rc]Didn't want to start a new thread for this so thought I would put it on here.. I've mentioned before on here that I am a Utd fan and coming out of the ground last night, what struck me was how normal fans were. No- one was sulking or moody, it was just people chatting normally, laughing, talking about plans for New Year. The result was expected (or at least not a shock) This is the situation Utd are now in and whilst I don't for one minute think we will be relegated, we are in the mix and Amorim was right to discuss it. This got me thinking about Wigan... In the 2006 season ( I think it was) when you were down at the bottom, how did it change you as fans? Obviously Wigan like Utd are a huge club and it seems unthinkable but I know some Wigan fans that said they enjoyed that season more than most because the fans really got behind the team and every game felt like a Final. Clearly you wouldn't swap that season for anything before or after but do you think that the shock had a positive impact on the club?[/quote:13ij38rc] I would swap it for 1980

[quote="Stu M":2eyrx0o6]Didn't want to start a new thread for this so thought I would put it on here.. I've mentioned before on here that I am a Utd fan and coming out of the ground last night, what struck me was how normal fans were. No- one was sulking or moody, it was just people chatting normally, laughing, talking about plans for New Year. The result was expected (or at least not a shock) This is the situation Utd are now in and whilst I don't for one minute think we will be relegated, we are in the mix and Amorim was right to discuss it. This got me thinking about Wigan... In the 2006 season ( I think it was) when you were down at the bottom, how did it change you as fans? Obviously Wigan like Utd are a huge club and it seems unthinkable but I know some Wigan fans that said they enjoyed that season more than most because the fans really got behind the team and every game felt like a Final. Clearly you wouldn't swap that season for anything before or after but do you think that the shock had a positive impact on the club?[/quote:2eyrx0o6] For me as a teenager at the time, it was about something which I took for granted (i.e. Wigan always winning things / Wigan being there or thereabouts every season) being in real jeopardy. I already had a season ticket so was already attending games in the early part of that season but that risk of something very bad happening with the threat of relegation just brought out some extra passion and fervour. I think with how attendances swelled and atmospheres improved it showed that many of our fan base felt the same. Dare I say, a few came out of the woodwork to get behind the team in our hour of need. Noble, Fielden and Dobson coming in really made a difference to the playing side of things and the team began to play with some confidence. We won 10 of the last 12 Super League games that year and the two we lost were both away fixtures and we lost by 2 points and 1 point respectively if memory serves me correctly. I know opposition supporters will point to the "spirit of the cap" breach but this was a loophole Wigan exploited at the time to our advantage rather than a blatant and flagrant "we are going to break the cap ceiling" approach and it is a loophole which the RFL subsequently closed. With you speaking of the unthinkable and the club being huge, something else I also remember was the rumours that Wigan wouldn't be relegated regardless and Dave Whelan appeared on Sky Sports to squash those rumours saying if we finished at the bottom of the ladder, it'd mean we deserved it and we would be relegated. It seems strange that he'd need to go on TV and say that but such were the rumours at the time.

[quote="Stu M":1ualn9e9]Didn't want to start a new thread for this so thought I would put it on here.. I've mentioned before on here that I am a Utd fan and coming out of the ground last night, what struck me was how normal fans were. No- one was sulking or moody, it was just people chatting normally, laughing, talking about plans for New Year. The result was expected (or at least not a shock) This is the situation Utd are now in and whilst I don't for one minute think we will be relegated, we are in the mix and Amorim was right to discuss it. This got me thinking about Wigan... In the 2006 season ( I think it was) when you were down at the bottom, how did it change you as fans? Obviously Wigan like Utd are a huge club and it seems unthinkable but I know some Wigan fans that said they enjoyed that season more than most because the fans really got behind the team and every game felt like a Final. Clearly you wouldn't swap that season for anything before or after but do you think that the shock had a positive impact on the club?[/quote:1ualn9e9] I'm not sure I'm in the minority here but I absolutely hated the 2006 season right through until we were absolutely safe (by beating Hull FC at home IIRC). Obviously we can look back on it fondly and be proud the way our support not only increased but galvanised once the wins started coming, but the rugby played under Millward was the worst I've still seen in forty years (despite the team on paper should be top five minimum). Then you had the salary cap breach which was both disgraceful and embarrassing at the same time which amplified just how far we had fallen.

[quote="MattyB":1x1wr6x4]I'm not sure I'm in the minority here but I absolutely hated the 2006 season right through until we were absolutely safe (by beating Hull FC at home IIRC). Obviously we can look back on it fondly and be proud the way our support not only increased but galvanised once the wins started coming, but the rugby played under Millward was the worst I've still seen in forty years (despite the team on paper should be top five minimum). Then you had the salary cap breach which was both disgraceful and embarrassing at the same time which amplified just how far we had fallen.[/quote:1x1wr6x4] You have to fall to get up again which we did and just got better. Re-Millward,that was the worst thing Wigan could have done take that clown on board (smug little tw*t). I personally did like the atmosphere, increase of gates, the,fans getting behind the team as the season went on. Anyway that was then but I do like now so much better

[quote="Jason65":2gfwqghi]You have to fall to get up again which we did and just got better. Re-Millward,that was the worst thing Wigan could have done take that clown on board (smug little tw*t). I personally did like the atmosphere, increase of gates, the,fans getting behind the team as the season went on. Anyway that was then but I do like now so much better [/quote:2gfwqghi] I agree the atmosphere and increase in attendances were incredible as each game came and went. Not sure any other team before or since has had such an instance of this. I think the worst I felt personally (more so than the 75-0 / 70-0 fortnight) was Wakefield away where Richards 'scored' in the final seconds which was ruled out. At that point I thought we were gone. The Wire home win out of nothing gave us the smallest glint of hope, I think we struggled a win v Hudds with a late Danny Orr try under the sticks. One of the reasons I can only slightly recall certain events is that I won't rewatch anything of that season as it still sends shudders.

One good thing about 2006 I suppose it accelerated a change of leadership (Whelan quitting immediately and then Maurice months later). Without this maybe we'd have missed out on the tenure of Ian Lenagan and ultimately where we are now.

2006 helped shape the future for sure and it was probably a good reality check for a lot of our fans. Stu likened it to Man U currently and they're getting towards that sort of low point but unlike Wigan, it won't be anywhere near as straightforward to rebuild it. There is too much money in the game, too many good teams and too many rules around spending now to get anywhere quickly.

[quote="MattyB":1778imjw]I agree the atmosphere and increase in attendances were incredible as each game came and went. Not sure any other team before or since has had such an instance of this. I think the worst I felt personally (more so than the 75-0 / 70-0 fortnight) was Wakefield away where Richards 'scored' in the final seconds which was ruled out. At that point I thought we were gone. The Wire home win out of nothing gave us the smallest glint of hope, I think we struggled a win v Hudds with a late Danny Orr try under the sticks. One of the reasons I can only slightly recall certain events is that I won't rewatch anything of that season as it still sends shudders. [/quote:1778imjw] The 75 and 70 point defeats were actually in the 2005 season and we briefly flirted with relegation that year as well. Our recruitment for 2006 was actually very good aside from moving Terry Newton on for Micky Higham. I think we had a lot of injuries but clearly there was a huge breakdown in relations between Millward and the players. Agree completely about the Wakefield game - there felt no way back after that. The run of games towards the end starting with Fielden's debut and the Warrington is still one of my best memories as a Wigan fan. Leeds away right after the salary cap breach was a huge effort from the players.

Was the away game to Bradford that we made the great comeback in, in the same season, as my memory is shot but it is one of the games that really stands out to me. We were 30(ish) points down at half time and I remember chatting with family and saying, well they scored 30 points in one half so no reason we couldn't in the second half, then Mark Calderwood scored a brace of tries and we pipped them at the end, the atmosphere that day was electric, the atmosphere in the games when we were on a roll was the best it has ever been at the stadium.

[quote="Warrior Winger":2rbl5zna]Was the away game to Bradford that we made the great comeback in, in the same season, as my memory is shot but it is one of the games that really stands out to me. We were 30(ish) points down at half time and I remember chatting with family and saying, well they scored 30 points in one half so no reason we couldn't in the second half, then Mark Calderwood scored a brace of tries and we pipped them at the end, the atmosphere that day was electric, the atmosphere in the games when we were on a roll was the best it has ever been at the stadium.[/quote:2rbl5zna] That was the 2007 playoffs. Amazing game.

[quote="MattyB":347k0hwa]I agree the atmosphere and increase in attendances were incredible as each game came and went. Not sure any other team before or since has had such an instance of this. I think the worst I felt personally (more so than the 75-0 / 70-0 fortnight) was Wakefield away where Richards 'scored' in the final seconds which was ruled out. At that point I thought we were gone. The Wire home win out of nothing gave us the smallest glint of hope, I think we struggled a win v Hudds with a late Danny Orr try under the sticks. One of the reasons I can only slightly recall certain events is that I won't rewatch anything of that season as it still sends shudders. [/quote:347k0hwa] I remember the Wakefield debacle with Pat not being awarded the try ,I also thought we were done after that but fairplay, things changed and our fans backed the team even more after that.