And thank you for confirming you actually have no idea regarding the rebuild, and are simply wildly, desperately speculating. Maybe you could give us some examples of these non-capital costs and i can happily tell you why they wont apply. Then maybe you can explain why you expect a reduction in attendances and i can tell you why that is wrong.

Well we will see wont we.

yes, the fact they are first team regulars in a team which has won a LSS, GF and got to a CC final and final eliminator in the past two years, some have won 3 GFs by the age of 24, definitely doesnt mean they are better than players who have less first team experience in less successful squads after all, some of Wigans reserves won some youth competitions.

You'd better tell Hetherington about all this money you've got in grants which won't effect Leeds finances - he obviously doesn't know about it.

We'd better add interest payments to the list. Looks like I know considerably more than you.






So you haven't got any proof about Quins then - thanks for clearing that up.



Yes because most of them really are first team regulars aren't they? Do you want to post how many games they've played, or which one played in the GF?
If they can't even beat their peers at the same level, it doesn't hold much hope for Leeds when they come to rely on them in the future, rather than being bit part players

Obsessed.

Blah, blah, look who's on our board etc. etc.

Well done.

I agree - why do you need TWO threads about this on Substandard?

No, you simply proved the development wouldnt be paid for up front. Well done on that. Im not sure who said it would be paid for up front or who you think you have proved this to, but well done all the same

No, it looks like you misunderstood something then took a quote from August, then used it as evidence of something completely different, to try and distract everyone from the fact you have wildly and desperately speculated that there will be random non-capital costs (which you cannot name) then pretended that because the development hasnt been paid up front (which no-one else mentioned) proves something.

I must admit, it was a surprising turn of events, i simply expected you to carry one talking about something you have no idea about, making vague and pointless claims. But to start and finish a whole new argument all on your own was, as i say, surprising.

proof that Brian McDermott should have done more or less than he did at quins. No. I dont, Surprisingly i cannot prove a vague qualitative statement. Who would have thunk it.


Burgess played 15, Watkins 6 of the first 7 before suffering a season ending injury, Clarkson 13, McShane 13, Ambler 9 Pitts 9, BJB 17 (for quins) so not too bad

Nice attempt at fog knitting (bit of a speciality of yours when in trouble isn't it) - unfortunately you've still not told us how a £10m project won't affect Leeds financially - my point all along. Want to try again - this time at least giving the illusion of answering the question. You could make millions telling companies how to undertake major building projects without it affecting them financially, especially when borrowing to fund it as well.



More fog knitting.
No you said Quins had the cheapest squad in SL - but when asked couldn't prove it.



So in terms of regulars for Leeds probably only really Burgess and now probably McShane (as cover for Buderus) and Clarkson (who I really rate). And the grand total who won a SL title is...............................(I'll let you answer that one).

Again not really the quality there compared to previous eras - again my point all along which you seem to ignore.

no, i didnt, I said the payment for the development would come from specific ring-fenced revenue streams and grants and not from the day to day funding of the club. You seem to have simply invented a new, different thing for you to try and distract everyone from the fact you are wildly and desperately speculating over something you know nothing about, i do wonder how long you will keep doing that.
nope, i cant find a question in this statement anywhere [iEven the Quins fans were underwhelmed by McDermott and seemed to be happy to get rid, and they are one of the most grounded set of supporters in terms of expectations. I'm sure you'll be able to show us the fact that Quins have the cheapest squad in the league. Plenty of other coaches have done better with similar squads.[/i It seems i didnt answer the question, because strangely you didnt ask one, then pretended you had.

depends on what asinine definition you decide counts as 'winning and SL title' which im sure will change when the facts become apparent and you have to resume the standard Wigan defence
other than they have done pretty well to be honest, and have been claiming plenty of experience in a very successful side. Im not sure what else you would want from the generation coming through at the moment. Surely you cant be naive enough to think the youth comps matter can you?

I'm nearly wetting myself with the excitement of Andy telling us all about these non capital costs!

You are going to tell us Andy?

Don't be a tease!

The prospect of us returning to power has turned opposition supporters into gibbering wrecks.

Wigan rule and don't you forget it.

I haven't wildly speculated anything, simply said that building work on the scale proposed will effect the club financially. Calling something "ring-fenced" doesn't magically mean it won't effect the club financially either. And as you seem so good with evidence I'm sure you'll enlighten us with these new sudden revenue streams that will suddenly appear and not effect the finances?



So you still can't back up the fact that "Quins have the cheapest squad" which you used as an excuse for McDermott's record at Quins. Why say it if you don't have a clue if it's true or not? I'll ask again - do you have any proof for that or did you make it up?



It's a simple question to answer I don't know why you can't or won't answer it?

I've already told you Billy, it might help if you could read.

you seem to be misunderstanding, so many times, that i can only expect it to be deliberate. There are revenue streams, that Leeds are putting in place which are deliberately and specifically for the payment of the southstand development. The day-to-day financing of the clubs isnt affected by this. You for some reason are insisting that despite there being specific and dedicated revenue streams which will pay for the southstand which are outside the general revenue streams of the club, that the the clubs finances will somehow be affected. I've asked you before for an example of this but you for some reason you cannot give us an example of this, and it is only now that you have realised that your wild speculation and nonsense has been found out that you are question the existence of these revenue streams. I know there are many having had discussions with Rob Oates on how they would be implemented, as you said, you can earn money by advising companies on how to minimise, sometimes to the point of none-existence, the impact of capital expenditure on the day-to-day financing of the a business. Not all of that information is in the public domain however, so it would be wrong for me to release it on here just to prove you are talking nonsense about something you know nothing about and have done for a fair amount of time

However............

It is your assertion that the finances of Leeds Rhinos are moved from the playing side of things to the building of the stadium, it is up to you to prove it. Considering the little hissy fit you are throwing regarding my assertion that Quins have the cheapest playing squad in SL (and your strange insistence that i havent answered a question you hadnt asked) it would expose huge hypocrisy on your part if you couldnt provide any evidence that this was the case, especially as you have already promised us that you werent wildly speculating!

you wont ask it again, this is the first time you have asked it, and only now to try and save face after your ridiculous speculation and nonsense. However, I simply thought it commonly known that this was the case, obviously, and im very well prepared to admit, there is no evidence in the public domain to say this was the case.


how many played in Leeds LSS and GF winning season in 2009? 5.

Nope, I've had a look and still can't see anything. Perhaps you could highlight the figures and quote the relevant bit.

I'd be much obliged as I'm going cross eyed here!

so are so you saying Leeds Rhinos arent going to pay for the work? If so I now get you, if not then thats the point hes getting at. IF it cost you money it hits your bottom line. It may be accounted for and a budget set but it still hits the bottom line.

No wild speculation from me, simple economics says the budgets of the club will come under pressure due to the extent of the redevelopment, especially when it will involve still using the stadium at the same time the changes are being made. There will be a host of things to pay for (some of which I've indicated over the last couple of pages) which you've obviously either haven't read or didn't want to.

You keep going on about these magical "ring-fenced" revenue streams that are going to suddenly appear to pay for everything, that mean Leeds will get everything for free - make you wonder why they didn't sort the redevelopment out years ago doesn't it. What are they? How much?




So that was the first time I asked was it?

Bottom of page 20 I asked:
"I'm sure you'll be able to show us the fact that Quins have the cheapest squad in the league"

So you don't actually read things then. So I've asked it twice now and you still can't answer because we know you made it up. I'll ask it a third time - lets see if you actually try to answer it this time - third time lucky eh? I won't hold my breath as it obvious you just make things up as you go along.





How many Grand Final winners who has a GF winner ring? You know those who might be regarded as proper first teamers.

Obviously Smokey's myopia is catching. Last few pages will help you buddy.

WLA, I'll help you.

Only Burgess, and he is older than Joel Tomkins.

I suppose we could also claim that Sam Tomkins, Liam Farrell, Chris Tuson, Stef Marsh, Josh Charnley, Ben Davies and John Walker played in Wigans 2010 Grand final winning season.

At least two of them have winners rings though.

Ambler came from Salford, Pitts from Wakefield and Amour from Whitehaven.
Grow your own eh!!!!!!

I knew the answer was only Burgess I just wanted to see if Smokey could bring himself to admit it - spoilsport!

No leeds are paying for it, it is simply coming out of ring-fenced revenue streams that are being specifically set up to bring in the money for the rebuild, they wouldnt be available otherwise. So it is extra money, coming specifically for the upgrade, and wont affect the day-to-day financing of the club.

again, you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding. And unsurprisingly, not for the first time you have needed to change your position. Its quite funny that i have kept you on here, spending so long simply making stuff up and changing your position to keep up your defence of Wigan.

You havent listed these none-capital costs you keep mentioning, maybe you can highlight some here...............


And as i have already explained to you, the affect on revenue will be minimised as the position of the stand means it will have no affect on none .-match day revenue, and the timing of the build means it will have a minimal effect on the match-day revenue with alternate provision.

The redevelopment has been planned in a staged manner, prior to around 2007, there was movement on redeveloping the north-stand, before the southstand, however there has been a change from the cricket side which meant the Southstand redevelopment was moved forward by a couple of years anyway, prior to the issues with remedial building work.

And just re-clarify your original position, because it seems to be constantly changing and all...... I havent stated that Leeds are getting it for free, that would be nonsense and only somebody uninformed and naive could have gleaned that from what i have said. Why dont we stick to what we were actually debating before you needed to change everything to hide your embarrassment, The revenue streams and grants that Leeds will use arent the same ones which affect their day-to-day trading and revenue and will have no affect on the investment in the playing side of things.

This is simply a denial of your assertion, that despite your ongoing hissy fit regarding Quins, it is something you have still failed to provide any evidence whatsoever for.

Im interested to see what your next attempt is based on.


i think you will find we can all read what you actually put, even if you try and cut it down to almost ask a question, what you actually said was [iEven the Quins fans were underwhelmed by McDermott and seemed to be happy to get rid, and they are one of the most grounded set of supporters in terms of expectations. I'm sure you'll be able to show us the fact that Quins have the cheapest squad in the league. Plenty of other coaches have done better with similar squads.[/i which isnt a question, as im sure you can see.

Though your amazing level of hypocrisy still carries on considering you accuse me of not being able to read, but ignore a clear and concise answer and ask for another. As i say, your funny.

Kallum Watkins in 2009 LSS and GF winning season played only 2 games less than Luke Burgess did last year, would you say that Luke Burgess wasnt a proper first teamer last year?

Though it is funny that you needed to change the question from which apparently only meant who played in a grand final rather that the amount who won an SL title

Interesting that you dont consider Mike Mcilorum or Eamon O'Carroll, members of Wigans 2010 SL winning side.

Wow classic Smokey fog knitting at it's finest. Lets cut to the chase:

1. After three attempts you still can't back-up the claim that Quins have the cheapest squad in SL after you used that as a reason to defend McDermott's record at Quins. If you're going to make claims like that at least back it up. So we can only assume that was made up (as well).

2. Seeing as the Leeds Rugby Chief Exec says that regular club revenue is going to help pay for the redevelopment - "Every penny generated from membership sales in 2011 will go directly to realising our vision to create a venue of excellence for our fans", I'll go with him thanks.

3. I do consider Mike McIllorum as part of the 2010 SL winning side - he did play in the GF after all.

HTH.

Can't be bothered to read through this monster thread but it's great to see Leeds spouting off in the press again while we keep schtum, we all know what happened last time they did that

Oh dear.

No financial figures.... no links to any facts....no capital costs identified............no idea Andy!

Time to smell the foot my boy, and move on with your life