[del:18nitoc3][/del:18nitoc3][quote="Stu M":18nitoc3]Staggered by this to be honest, I really am, for a number of reasons. Wigan have acted like a huge club again, forward thinking and from what I am hearing, Peet and Radlinski have outlined a plan and shown some real faith in Vaughan in particular. I have heard the other side of the story but I'm not putting that on here. What is clear is that we have sleep walked yet again and our biggest rivals have beaten us to the punch. Its just another sign of the general malaise at the club that after feeling positive with the signings, the new assistant coaches and the feel good nature of pre-season and the players comments, that the Salford defeat, Knowles leaving and now this has just added to the negativity. What I don't get though is the plan that Wigan will have. Vaughan is a competitor who didn't really do loads last season but there was also mitigation for that. He has been Lancashire and England Academy captain and is a terrific leader. A die hard Saints fan who has now signed for the enemy. However Wigan don't need to poach Academy lads when they have the best Academy in the comp. What now happens to their young lads? Walters, Nsemba and Farrell will be the back rows and that's without the Wigan Academy lads Where does Sambou get a look in with Eckersley and Wardle. What then happens with Nathan Lowe who is extremely highly rated at Wigan, unless they are looking at a wing spot but then of course there is Jacob Douglas. Sambou isn't the one that I am that worried about, he's coming off the back of a bad injury and Dagnall and Robertson are ahead of him. He may or may not turn out to be a good player. I've argued with Saints fans about my worry of Wigan being the Man City of Rugby league and effectively turning the comp into a procession each year. Whilst that's great for Wigan fans it's not great for the game. They can't buy everyone but their financial strength means that no one can get near them. I agree with NK that I can see both players being bought out and coming a year early. They simply can't stay at Saints and why should Saints invest in any sort of development for them when they are going to Wigan. We should let them rot and not play them nor send them out on dual reg but if they went earlier, we save a bit of SC and get them away from the environment. What I will say though is that after Peet's comments about Matty Nicholson, it's quite ironic and I wonder what he would say now? Also there were lots on here saying that Vaughan isn't really all that when they were mocking the "golden generation" Saints talk about. Funny how the narrative changes From Saints point of view we simply have to wake up and start to act like a big club again. We have gone from the most dominant team in RL to a laughing stock in 2 years. I get that Wigan fans will laugh at this and love it. Of course they will but Wigan need a strong Saints so be careful what you wish for. The sport needs a strong Saints and Wigan and at the minute and seemingly for the foreseeable future, there is only one powerhouse.[/quote:18nitoc3] I don't know much about the lads although I do know that Vaughan was the MOM in the Reserve Final. The coaching staff at St Helens put both lads in the bracket of a 'golden generation', it is also interesting that up until this week the vast majority of Saints fans were labelling them likewise.

[quote="Cherry_&_White":1a9hv7hg]It's a fair point that. I suspect that Peet probably regrets being as forthright as he was - in public at least - when that was announced. A big difference though is that Wigan (alongside Saints) have easily the best record in bringing through their own academy players compared to everyone else in the league. So you can hardly make the 'demoralised' comment about anyone in the Wigan set up, whereas maybe you could for Wire. Hopefully we're starting to see that change under Burgess. And on the Man City point, I think the only way that happens is with serious changes to the salary cap. As good as it feels to be a Wigan fan just now, sport is cyclical and no amount of clever salary cap management and positive culture is going to keep us on top. It's only a couple of years since Saints seemed almost untouchable.[/quote:1a9hv7hg] Peet was upset with Nicholson not Wire.

[quote="Stu M":vephbjw6]This isn't sour grapes as I've said the exact same thing on Red Vee but the points you make on Vaughan are valid. I don't know what his USP is. He's not big, he's not super strong and he's not quick. He's a competitor no question but I don't know where he fits in. You are spot on in that he could well turn out to be a Bateman. In 2-3 years time it will be clear who made the right decision. It's not a great look when die hard Saints fans are making the decision to go to Wigan although to be fair perhaps you could return serve with Welsby who was a Wigan fan and ended up at Saints. Also it's worrying when Wigan are signing lads from the likes of Thatto Heath who again are St Helens lads born and bred and fans of the club but that's another conversation. I've been very critical of the club of late and nothing is changing my mind however to play devils advocate, I do wonder if they are putting a lot of faith in Jake Davies and Billy Keeley, both back-rowers a couple of years younger and well thought of. Perhaps they've looked at the emergence of those two who knows. That's an assumption on my part that I am clinging onto![/quote:vephbjw6] Davies and Keeley are no Nsembe, they are years off regular first team action. Welsby wasn't a Wigan Warriors fan, he only ever wanted to sign for Saints.

[quote="Stu M":31svxn9w]Thinking about it a bit more, Wigan were well stocked with back rowers and had a succession plan but losing as many as they have means you can understand why they have looked at Vaughan. Shane Eccles will have coached him for England Academy and will know him well but over the last few years they've lost Isa, KPP, Nicholson, Bateman, even James McDonnell. I may have missed some more out there Mason and Kerr are backrowers I believe? Vaughan will add to the competition particularly if Farrell's minutes are more limited in 2026.[/quote:31svxn9w] Kerr's a loose forward I think, albeit a versatile one who could easily be played at second row to begin with. He's played in the halves during preseason, so all being well he'll be able to get his chance irrespective of our plans with Vaughan.

[quote="NSW":28ugcugc]To be fair they stopped NRL interest in Delaney. I spoke to Radlinski and he alluded to Knowles signing a huge contract (this was in March 2022), stopped NRL interest in Welsby And signed Feldt, Murphy and Sailor who look like 3 good buys on paper. Daryl Clark wouldn’t have been a cheap replacement for Roby Think saints fans are being a little harsh on the club, they are in a transition period after years of dominance, it’ll happen to us too.[/quote:28ugcugc] I can't understand the signing of Sailor. In my view it restricts Robertson's progression unless Welsby is on his way soon.

[quote="Zig":32gfhfng]Davies and Keeley are no Nsembe, they are years off regular first team action. Welsby wasn't a Wigan Warriors fan, he only ever wanted to sign for Saints.[/quote:32gfhfng] Sam Tomkins was his idol and all his family were big fans.

[quote="NSW":32crvw5w]Would make sense Vaughan coming now. Can’t see a big name coming in unless someone unexpected leaves. Douglas is off contract (maybe replaced by Sambo?) Byrne is going to Wire but it’s looking like Hill will be the replacement (with McDermott etc back filling) Keighran is the big one, I’m not 100% sure Eckerlsey can slot straight in there but hopefully we’ll know during the year. Don’t think we’re in a place to sign a big player.[/quote:32crvw5w] Hill will eventually replace Ellis.

[quote="Phuzzy":1rngto9n]Stu, I'd be interested in seeing the "he's not all that comments" on Vaughan. I don't remember anything specifically relating to him but that's not to say there haven't been any. I think the comments have been more general and centred around Saints seeming reliance on the 'golden generation' and the fact that it's crazy to put your eggs in that particular basket. These signings actually go some way to proving that as there's two straight away who won't be having long first team careers at Saints (or however Mike Rush phrased it). Others may yet follow suit at some stage and then there's the usual ones that flatter to deceive etc. You mention the other side of the negotiations. Was this conducting them by message as rumoured on Redvee or something more?[/quote:1rngto9n] This is what Saints thought of them. https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/sport/24 ... er-league/

[quote="Phuzzy":1rngto9n]Stu, I'd be interested in seeing the "he's not all that comments" on Vaughan. I don't remember anything specifically relating to him but that's not to say there haven't been any. I think the comments have been more general and centred around Saints seeming reliance on the 'golden generation' and the fact that it's crazy to put your eggs in that particular basket. These signings actually go some way to proving that as there's two straight away who won't be having long first team careers at Saints (or however Mike Rush phrased it). Others may yet follow suit at some stage and then there's the usual ones that flatter to deceive etc. You mention the other side of the negotiations. Was this conducting them by message as rumoured on Redvee or something more?[/quote:1rngto9n] This is what Saints thought of them. https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/sport/24 ... er-league/

[quote="Stu M":zqe23820]You'll probably sign Robertson now... In all seriousness those 3 are very good players and I believe Stephens has signed a new 4 year deal. Robertson has been training at centre pre-season and again this has been offered up as a reason for Vaughan's disillusionment in that he is not starting. I think this Salford game in R1 is huge. Lose that and the atmosphere will very quickly become toxic. Depending on what team Salford are able to field will make a huge difference. If the takeover isn't complete then they can't play most of the players is my understanding. With a full strength team they are more than capable of beating us and Wellens plans of only having one pre-season friendly and resting half of the team will come back big time to bite him.[/quote:zqe23820] I think I may have been wrong about Stephens Stu but, trying to fit Robertson in at centre seems a mistake (square peg in a round hole). He is a natural fullback or standoff. Saints should have signed a centre and played Robertson as a pivot.