During your game against Hull Leon Pryce picked up on this, he said all through his career he's struggled playing the ball, maybe it's just the sheer size of the bloke that makes him struggle with his balance and he can't help but move forward

Yeah possibly. When we first signed him he was really clumsy with it. So whether it's a conscious effort to take an extra second and make sure he doesn't make an error I don't know. To me it looks like he's always having a little look up before playing it.

You couldn't, because they are not.

The point being made is because of the low standard of Super League it is hard to say whether someone is world class or not. With Walmsley, it looks like he is. But until you show it on the biggest stage continually: NRL, WCC, GB against Aus/NZ, then its just ifs and buts.

That is the same for any player in Super League.

Quite simple this really:

Bateman has proven he has World Class ability as indicated by his personal accolades in the NRL. Being awarded best back row in the best competition puts you into that bracket. His previous 18 months form is a different discussion.

Walmsley absolutely bosses Super League no question, and consistently at that. He may well be World Class, but his way of showing it will be to turn up in the World Cup which he hasn’t done yet. And by turn up I mean in the way the likes of Faz, Scully, Peacock, pre-Wigan Fielden, and Sam Burgess etc did…not just be solid at that level, excel at that level and rightly be branded World Class. Hopefully he can prove that to us all in a single tournament this autumn. I’d love nothing more for him to absolutely kill it against Tonga, NZ, and the Aussies.

*Awaits comments that Faz was crap for GB

There’s always some will say that…but IMO during that period of Faz & Scully we (GB) had the best pack in the world. We just didn’t quite measure up in the halves & outside backs consistently.

Agree. We always seemed close back then and then they'd pull something out of nothing.

I’ve thought about Walmsley and his dominance in this league a few times and considered how I rate him in comparison to that real golden trio of props we had in Peacock, Fielden and Morley and he could well be every bit as good and he’s actually dominating this league more than they did in their days but I can’t put him up with them and it all comes back to the games they did it in. The bigger the game, the better those guys were. The tougher the opponent, the more they raised their games. The memories I have of those guys are all from test matches and world club challenges (and the NRL in Morley’s case) and that is where they built their legacy and left every single fan who watched them in no doubt that they were World Class.

We had those 3 and then some crossover with Graham and Sam Burgess and they were 5 absolute world class players. There’s a chance Walmsley is in that bracket but if he sticks to dominating superleague and an average one at that but he doesn’t have those stand out international moments, dominates a world club challenge or three or goes and smashes an NRL stint, there’s no way he’s going down with those 5.

I would put Lockers in with them 5

Agreed, simply based on the fact that most players name him in either the best team they've played with or against on both sides of the world, but sadly we didn't see enough of him at International level.

Peacock is hands down, the greatest super league prop.

Fielden and Morley were no way as constistent and once Fielden got punched by Mason, he just went backwards at an alarming rate. Even before that, in big games he was so hit and miss. Sometimes he would boss the game and others, he would be invisible. Peacock was never invisible.

Walmsley has surpassed Fielden and I also think Morley but there is no way he would ever surpass Peacock

I was just sticking to props really with it being a comparison to Walmsley.

I’ll even take Lebrons points above about how consistent Walmsley has been for a few seasons now but you have to factor in that Fielden, Peacock, Morley, Graham etc we’re playing against each other. Who does Walmsley have challenging him week to week like those guys had?

FTV said people were a tough crowd because Walmsley ran for 140 metres against Catalans. That was meant to add weight to the view that Walmsley is world class but does it not just highlight where this comp finds itself? The top game for Walmsley so far this year has been against a Catalans side with 4 props consisting of Dudson, Bousquet, Napa and Kasiano. They’re good props by current standards but those guys above would’ve eat them alive. Dudson is decent and did 10 minutes off the field, Bousquet is decent and broke his arm, Napa has been awful for a couple of years now and got sent off and Kasiano isn’t bad but he’s well past his best and you know what? That is the best superleague can offer, no doubt about it and it’s a set of props we can’t match at the minute.

I genuinely do think Walmsley is world class but the key word is ‘think’. When your toughest test week to week is what I’ve just described above how can I ‘know’ he’s world class? I can’t and that’s why the World Cup (and future internationals/world clubs) is huge for him.

Up until your last sentence, probably the best post you've ever made on here.

Fielden had a lot going on back then and should never have gone on that tour TBH. Thankfully, in 2010 he had another great season after Maguire came in but you're right, he was never the same after the Mason incident.

Peacock was one of those players that even though he played for a rival you couldn't help but admire him (Cunningham was the same and I thanked him outside OT in 2010 for the pleasure of watching him play which he was quite shocked with seeing as I'm a Wigan fan but class is class regardless of their colours) sadly though all respect I had for him ended in 2015 and the more I see of his last few seasons the more I see he got away with absolute murder because of his name. How he stays on the field at Magic in 2014 is a mystery.

Too much is being made of this "world class" tag. Personally and with all due respect I couldn't give a damn whether Wigan fans think he is or not. He is the best prop in the comp by a distance and his metres made stats are insane. I do think he has weaknesses in his game particularly his footwork in defence and he is still untidy with his ptb, maybe that's due to his size.

SOL was an incredible player, unfortunately at the end of his career his injuries really hampered him in terms of games played. Funnily enough he always seemed to be fit for the Saints games.

I watched Warrington vs Wigan from 2010 the other day.

Warringtons pack was Morley, Monaghan, Carvell, L. Anderson, Westwood, Harrison. They had Solomona and Wood on the bench. I thought they looked like monsters compared to the current Super League standard.

Wigan had Fielden, Leuluai, Coley, Hansen, Joel, Lockers, young Faz and McIlorum.

Leeds at the time had Peacock, Buderus, Leuluai, Eastwood, Ablett, JJB.

I think Walmsley is world class but I did wonder how he would get on against more opposition like that.

What happened in 2015? I've heard people mention something before

Fielden was great in 2010. He didn't have the meters stats some of these guys have but he always seemed to take on the oppositions best prop and win, probably with the exception of Warrington and Morley.

I'd be surprised if many people think Walmsley has overtaken Morley. Fielden I can see because of the Noble years at Wigan but I don't think he's particularly close to Peacock and Morley. It will be tough for him without going to the NRL and dominating, there's no one to measure him against here.

Absolutely mate, no reason for Saints fans to really care. He is comfortably the best prop in the league, in fact I’m not sure I can remember a time when a player in one position was so far clear of his peers.

It’s an interesting debate though to just look at where that leaves the game over here at the moment. Why is he so far clear? It’s not a good thing for the league as a whole that it’s the case. I suppose a lot of it comes down to the fact that his nearest challengers as the best prop in Superleague have been picked off by Australian clubs, such as Tom Burgess, Luke Thompson and to a lesser degree Ryan Sutton (the modern day Sutton is a far better player than the one who left us).

There are some decent props still though, its not all poor quality. Just off the top of my head I can think of Satae at Hull, Watts (not so much now but certainly over the last 2 years), Oledzki- young and raw but has a great engine. Cooper at Warrington is a good prop too.

I have to agree with Peacock and Morley though, even as a Saints fan Walmsley is not at their level. Peacock could play 80 mins and his all round leadership skills makes him a standout and obviously Morley ripped it up at NRL and International level.

Yeah there are a few (not Watts though, his last good season was in 2019) good ones but a there is a real lack of quality and depth in comparison to that era of Fielden, Peacock, Morley, Graham etc.

I’ve just randomly googled the 2005 Grand Final and Bradfords 4 props that day were Jamie Peacock, Stuart Fielden, Adrian Morley and Joe Vagana



Saints 2006 GF props-Paul Anderson, Jason Cayless, James Graham and Maurie Fa’asavalu.

That was the sort of quality the top teams were throwing at each other back then and then when you compare it to the second best group of front rowers in superleague now and you get Dudson, Napa, Bousquet and Kasiano thrown at you, it doesn’t half highlight where we’re at currently.

It doesn’t mean Walmsley isn’t world class by any means but it makes it difficult to really evidence it.

That Bradford 4 is frightening by today's standards. Walmsley possibly gets into that starting 4 but who else in Superleague currently?

I hate sensible discussions.





btw I see Angry Dave has resurfaced/re-morphed on Red Vee

Absolute madness isn’t it?! The unbelievable thing about that is Morley was on loan from the Roosters IIRC (or a short term deal until he went to Wire maybe). Imagine being in a position of having Fielden, Peacock and Vagana in your side and going ‘I think we need more, let’s get Adrian Morley’



Walmsley gets in for Vagana at that stage I reckon but I’m struggling to think of anybody else. Maybe Oledzki at his very best for Vagana. The only other I can think of being close is Chris Satae but Vagana was some player (he wasn’t at his absolute peak at that point though iirc).

He’s already had a great WCC performance in a weakened saints team against the roosters (honestly - I think you should go back and watch his spells in that game). The other two since have been cancelled.

His problem for the WC is that he won’t be in a pack alongside fearsome players like the pack you are mentioning who all played together. He’ll be the only one with any intimidation factor/impact bar maybe tom burgess.

If he’s fit he will be heavily targeted (as he is every week) but will still end up being England’s best prop by a distance I’m sure.

I'm also not sure I ever saw Fielden/Peacock/Morley dominate an Aussie pack. They certainly held their own at times but having followed England/GB both here and down under when those guys were playing, I don't really recall any dominance up front (we certainly talked about it a lot leading into series but unfortunately it never quite happened!!). Maybe the 2004 Tri-Nations - excluding the final of course (which is still probably the most gutting result in my lifetime).

I think all three had huge games against the Aussies and not just one game either but unfortunately we’ve been too far behind them in the backs and pivot positions to take advantage of that. Fielden certainly terrorised them in the WCC games (producing probably the best performance I’ve ever seen from a prop against Wests) and Morley was unbelievable in the NRL.

I’m not knocking Walmsley and you rightfully point out he’s been robbed of a couple of opportunities to show what he’s made of against what would’ve been Penrith and Melbourne these past two years. I can’t buy that he’ll be lacking in support in the World Cup though tbh and that’ll be no excuse not to show exactly how good he is. You speak as though the Aussies (or whoever) will think ‘Stop Walmsley, stop England’ but I doubt they hold him in that esteem tbh. There certainly won’t be any of them feeling intimidated because they face that class/size most weeks. He’ll have Luke Thompson (who has been excellent for England to date), Tom Burgess, Oledzki, Sutton etc alongside him and they’re all high class. He’ll also have Morgan Knowles in the middle and I sense he’ll really make his name outside of superleague in that World Cup. He’ll also have a backline with some big bodies/big metre makers in it via the likes of Farnworth, Makinson, Davies, Young etc, so he certainly doesn’t have the excuse that he’ll have been marked out the game because of a lack of metre makers/threat elsewhere.

I hope they do focus on him that heavily mind. There will be plenty of room for other players then.