Do you actually believe Saints would have won if both teams had had the same number of players for the whole game? Saints played a busted Cas team in the first round of the playoffs and then a semi - busted Catalans team in the s/f and had the benefit of some "dodgy" refereeing calls. And you had no half backs - as Saints fans keep telling us. Fair enough, you make your own luck and can only play the team in front of you, but.......

Come on mate it was an embarrassing comment from wane there's absolutely no logic in with having a full complement would equal a 30 point win

Flower must be one hell of a player if he's worth a 30 point win in the grand final!

The truth is nobody knows. Yes wigan were favourites but how many times do favourites get beat? The answer is quite a lot.

The humerous thing for non-Wigan fans is two-fold really. Firstly, all the focus was on the fact that you played with 12 men. However all 12 of those men played in position.
We had a winger at full back, a centre on the wing, a prop at centre, a 2nd rower at 6 and a full back at 7. We were also a man down from the 17 for 78 minutes. It could be said that the incident disrupted us more than you. But this never gets a mention.
Put it this way, if 12 men of Saints, all playing in their correct positions, played a Wigan side missing the equivalents of who we were missing and with so many players playing out of position, then I'd still be confident we could win.

Secondly, Wigan fans seem to talk about being down to 12 men as though it's an automatic defeat. Again, many times in the past we've seen 12 men win matches against 13. Also, your game v Widnes earlier in the season should have taught you all a lot about writing off a side with 12 men.

So to reiterate my answer to your question: I don't know. Nobody knows.
But Shaun Wane suggesting that "everyone knows" that Wigan would have won by 30 had Flower not been sent off is complete lunacy and simply ruins the improved reputation he had been growing this season with his toned down approach in the media when discussing Saints.

Flower could have had a shocker. Dropping balls, missing tackles and giving pens away.

Or

he could have had a blinder and won Harry Sunderland.

Nobody knows and it's gone now. He did what he did, it played a massive part in your loss. Saints have moved on but it seems wane still having sleepless nights.

I agree that Wane goes OTT with some of his comments. He certainly isn't the most eloquent of guys and can often be seen struggling for "le mot juste". He did this week as well when discussing Burgess's departure and was provided with the word "patience" by one of the journalists when describing what it was that Burgess should have shown more of. He then went on to contradict himself by saying Wigan still weren't playing well - whereas he had complimented the players on Sunday. Maybe he should have just added the word "very" or "as well as possible".
As previously stated, I think Wigan would have won The GF comfortably - SW should have paraphrased his opinion in a more subtle manner rather than "everyone knows Wigan would have won by 30". However, an anodyne comment such as "Wigan may well have won..." wouldn't have had the same effect. Is he already playing the mind games with Saints?!

I don't think its mind games. If it is then he's doing it wrong as comments like this would only motivate Saints.

I think it's pure arrogance.

It's a pointless debate because there's no way of knowing what would have happened.

I'm happy to look at it the way I put it to Saints fans pre and post the derby- Saints got lucky in those play offs last year but with injuries to key personnel in key areas they deserved a bit. We've had some in big games ourselves.

That comment from Wane isn't going to do anything for us. Do I think we'd have won that GF with Flower? Probably yes but I can't be sure and he should have stuck to the line he did after the game- It was a missed opportunity for the other 16 players to go on and become instant legends! An opportunity they could have taken but didn't.

Saints fans may well think they would have won if both squads had equal numbers of players.
As for the people I've spoken to from other clubs, no one has ever suggested they thought Saints would have won, with either 13 v 13 or 12 v 12.
IMO the game was decided by the incompetence of Bentham in not sending off both men.
Hohaia chased 25 mtrs to smash his elbow/forearm into Flower's jaw.
Flower retaliated by throwing two punches.
Clearly, IMO, both men should have been sent off.

It will be good to see Ben Flower back and I hope with a win too.

I agree with both Nicky Kiss and Father Ted!

I personally put a good chunk of the blame for our defeat at the feet of Bowen.

The overlap he butchered that would IIRC put us in the lead was scandalous imo.

When it's backs against the wall in so match like that you expect your experienced players to make the right decisions.

Not sure when/how we got lucky in the playoffs but apart from that I agree with you.

That's true. Pass To Gelling and it would have been a try for him or Charnley. ( But that might have resulted in a win by 34 or 36 points....!! Apologies in advance to St Pete and YG!)

So you disagree with the only part that's (slightly) negative towards Saints...not like you



Playing a Cas team that had collapsed in a heap, followed by a Catalan side with hardly enough energy to run out of the tunnel (when everyone expected it to be Leeds)was decent in itself and then it was followed up by a man being sent off in a GF after only 2 mins.

Not a bad old trot that!

Haha. I wasn't counting the Grand Final. I thought you was simply talking about the two playoff games.

I think you're definitely looking at it through anti-Saints glasses though. If we are talking about luck then surely it was bad luck for us to head into the playoffs without Walsh, Wilkin and Lomax?

Was that luck or earnt for finishing top over the season?

Bang on Ted

Did you see the point in my original post that said you deserved the luck due to injuries to key players?

And also the part were I said we'd had our own in recent times like Saints missing halfbacks in 2010 or Wire losing Joel Monaghan and Steffan Ratchford during the 2013 Grand Final.

No anti Saints bias. You had a great run in that play off series and the Flower incident was the cherry on top. Even the most blinkered Saints fan must surely admit it was a pretty simple run at winning a Grand Final. The great Saints teams of the early 2000's would have scored about 200 points a game in those circumstances

Haha. Not another bold score prediction from a Wiganer!?

Joking aside, I get your point. On paper Cas and Catalans at home was a fairly comfortable route, but as has been mentioned, we earned that route I suppose and our injuries were a leveller.

Funny... I swear this was a thread about Sam Tomkins.

Is USED to be

I still think that if Freddie Griffith's had tackled Tom Van Vollenhovan instead of pushing him into touch in 1961 when he passed the ball back inside to Large, Tom would not have been able to get back to take the return pass and go on to score.

Relevant username

IF it is announced before/during the game i think a chorus of the 'Euro 96' song 'coming home' would be in order with the last line changed to
'Tomkins coming home' or 'Sam is coming home'

Might increase the atmosphere a wee bit