Yeah but we are still in the early days of this new top 8 system and thus I think XBrettKennyX has a point. Ok 1st and 2nd made the Grand Final again last year but they were helped by 3rd and 4th (Hudds and Hull KR) turning out to be so weak. This year (as stands before todays games) Saints and Leeds are 3rd and 4th. A vast difference. Last year Saints and Leeds ended up playing 6th and 8th in the final eliminators respectively. I'd be truly amazed if it works out that way this season.

A year ago a lot from here would have been happy with a top 4 finish. We should end up top 2, and that's something none of us expected with the same group of players.
'Progress' being better than a semi final is statistically correct, but a season of consistency which has been missing for quite a while is also progress.

Technically speaking the team finishing top is the best team in the comp and should be handed the Championship trophy.

They aren't so we have a play off system. The play off system should be that it almost guarentee's the top 2 make it to the GF. The top 5 and top 6 systems always guarenteed that 1 of the top 2 got to the GF and almost certainly the other of the top 2 got to the GF too. With this current ridiculous format we could have a 7th v 8th GF which is totally stupid. The top team only has to lose 1 home game in the playoffs and it means it will have to go away to another top 4 club to make the GF. No doubt Sky and thr RFL will love this as its proves an even playing field but then what is the point in trying to win games in the regular season? Eventually it will lead to a drop in standards and the crowds will drop away as there is 'nothing to play for' in the regular rounds.

Bringing back the top 6 system is a must.

So you honestly believe that if we finish top this year, but don't make the GF, we have gone backwards?

If you do, then I'm afraid it's your mental faculties that have slipped in to reverse.

Last year, we had a 15-12 record in the competition, lost 70% of our first 10 matches and 44% overall.

So far this year, we have a 17-3 record, we're playing attractive, attacking rugby, we're fitter, stronger and better placed for an assault on the GF (being top of the league).

League tables don't lie.
If we finish top of the league, it's because we are the best team in the league.

If we then go on and lift the GF, that will be a RELIEF - The GF win is a bonus for any team that didn't finish top, but simply a relief for the top team to be recognised for the achievement that you have already accomplished by beating everyone else all year.

The current system is far too heavily skewed in favour of winning a knock-out competition and fails to recognise that the best team across the season is not always the one that lifts the GF trophy.

Whatever happens for the rest of this year, we have progressed MASSIVELY from where we were 12 months ago.

You honestly believe that if we finish top of the table and don't make a Final we have not made progress???

That is deluded, we could finish top, win our first game and then lose the final eliminator on the bounce of a ball and you honesly believe we will have not made progress??

We have progressed no doubt about it.

Brett was predicting doom and gloom before the start of the season as we had appointed, what was in his eyes, an untested coach. Its his only way now of demonstrating that he was right all along...

Sadly, I feel this may be true.

I had an awful lot of run-ins with him around that time, most of which I how regret. But I don't believe that, having seen Wigan lead the league all year, anyone could seriously and honestly proclaim that we haven't improved out of sight compared to what we were in previous years.

It isn't just about winning silverware. That would be the icing on the cake, but Wigan have entertained their fans all season with mostly very good performances. Last year and the year before, etc, it was nowhere near as enjoyable because every approaching fixture looked like it could be decided by the roll of a dice. You just didn't know how Wigan were going to perform, and far too often they performed very badly and let their supporters down. The first game last year was possibly the nadir - thousands of fans all eager and excited for the new season, only to see Wigan slouch out and get stuffed by a side which is average at the best of times but which also happened to be packed with A-teamers.

Anyone who says that we haven't improved on that is not being honest, and must have a hidden agenda.

You've already got it. It was given to you by the RFL. It's thanks to you lot that we only got to have the bloody hubcap for four years. Now you'll have to endure the thing!

Is it just me, or does the comment above make no sense?

It makes perfect sense. If you look closely you will see the Championship trophy (pre SL) in the Wigan trophy cabinet (to the right of the Lancs Cup).
Wigan were given permission by the RFL to keep the trophy having won it the most times.

Doh... How stupid am i....

Very true, but as Cruncher says, there's more to it than just results, the enjoyment factor has increased even more than the bare win/loss ratio, for me. This season, I don't think you can say that we've had a single bad game - even the two careless SL losses v Quins & Bulls were really only minor blips, and the Leeds & Saints games could have gone either way.

There's just no comparison between now and the Noble or Millward eras.

A look at the two run ins tells you the fight for 1st is far from finished. If we can't get the job done against them ourselves then we may struggle to hold on to it.

Warrington bar Saints at home have a run of fixtures that don't look too difficult, whilst Wigan have Hull, Hull KR and Leeds all away.

I've always thought that you have the hardest run in. If you manage to top the league than that will be an excellent effort.
To those who think that finishing 1st means very little, I disagree. Its a sign of being the best/most consistent team over the whole season. The fact that the 'Champions' are the team that win the play offs doesn't change that.

No comment.

It all depends on how you define "progress".

I look at it this way. At the start of the competitions everyone knows what the format of those are, everyone knows when the fixtures will take place and everyone knows what resources they have available in order to maximise their achievements.


Now, imo the only thing that counts are results. As they say in golf "they don't draw pictures on scorecards".

Last year, we got to the CC semi-final and the final eliminator in SL. It doesn't matter how we got there, we did.


In order to demonstrate progress this season, we need to improve on that. That is not my opinion, that is fact.


There is no point at all in finishing top if we cannot back up that with a strong run in the playoffs. Like it or not, this competition is all about the playoffs. The weekly rounds, nice though they are to win, are not as significant as some on here would like you to believe. Their primary purpose is building for the playoffs.


It's clear from some on here that they judge "progress" by performance in those weekly rounds. If the object of the season was to finish on top of the league, I would also be in that camp. It isn't and therefore I am not.


Sorry to disappoint some, but I have no "agenda" nor any need or desire to "save face" (on a message board for heavens sake). I am simply stating my views.

That's where we differ. I go to matches mainly to be entertained, and I think I'm far from being the only one, judging by the lack of correlation between our attendances and results, over the years.

I therefore judge "progress" largely as an increase in the entertainment value, which is more to do with how we play than whether we win or lose. Sure, it's better to win than lose, but if results were the only thing that counted, we'd have lower crowds now than we did in the early 90's.

Definitely deluded, your views or not it is blatantly obvious to everybody that we have made progress as a club this year.

Clear top of the league
top points scorer
top try scorer
best attack
best defence

need I go on??

There is a difference between progress and success.

There is no doubt that Wigan have made progress this year, but success will ultimately be measured by trophies won. If you finish top and dont bring any silverware home this season, then pretty much no one will remember the fact that you finished top, not least your own fans.

It's wrong in my opinion to work damn hard for 27 rounds, finish top and get sod all reward other than a plate. The league leaders should get far more recognition.

Watching you this year, your play is so controlled and error free, it's hard to see past you. I would like to understand the relative completion rates of each team this year. I'm willing to wager yours will be 5-10% higher than anyone else's.

It isn't both, I assure you.

Progress is easy to define - improving on what went before. Wigan have improved on what went before enormously. And that IS a fact, not just a view.

If you haven't got an agenda, I'm puzzled by your attitude, because it's clear you think you're on a winner here. The chances of winning the Grand Final are slim. There can be only one out of 6 likely challengers, and, as others have said, that could be decided by the bounce of a ball, or, as in last year's final, by yet another bizarre and completely unfair refereeing decision.

If, by some chance, Wigan win it, you'll be chuffed as a Wigan fan. But if they don't, even if it's down to the bounce of the ball, or the referee, or whatever, you can say that you were right all along.

Yet you haven't been all along. You say it only matters winning at the end of the season? By that logic we'd only turn up to watch the play-offs. 15,000-odd people clearly disagree with you on that.

Now surely you're not going to insist that they are all wrong and you are right?

It's their opinion. If they are happy to see a team play "well" for the weekly rounds and appreciate that as progress then good luck to them. Personally I believe it's all about results.

The difference here is that their opinion is entirely subjective, but mine is completely objective. I can therefore evaluate "progress" factually and without bias.



1. Actually it IS a point of view. We are out of the CC at an earlier stage than we were last year. Would it have happened had we played the same teams last year? Who knows, - it's a POINT OF VIEW

We are also mid-way through the season. Will we make the final eliminator and at least match what we have done in recent years? Who knows? Will we fade away and achieve nothing? Who knows?


2. I am not sure why I would want to, or indeed if it would be possible to say I was "right". As stated above, my evaluation is not based on opinion.

How can you say that winning more games than last year is not progress?

Well as I have stated, progress in my opinion means position at the end of the season in the 2 competitions.

It's no good coming top of the pile after the regular rounds and crashing out of the playoffs straight away. That is not progress, that is "peaking at the wrong time" (or maybe other clubs are holding back a tad, maybe that's what Wigan did under BN?).

Look, all the signs are good. We are in prime position to exploit our position in the league and of course I hope we progress to the GF and win it, but I cannot accept either our level of performance or our current league position as evidence of progress.