You're now asking yourself questions rather than answering the simple question of whether Feka is overweight. He is. If he were fitter he would be more effective. He is less fit than any member of the mid 90s team.

I would seriously doubt whether there is any difference in the fitness of the early-mid 90s sides compared with the current team. From '91 or '92 (I think) the team were entirely full time pro'. Players like Edwards, Clarke, Connolly, Platt etc were at least as fit as their current equivalents. What we didn't have then though was overweight players like Feka and Riddell, both of whom would not have been allowed to be fat back when Wigan's standards were higher. Feka's fatigue and resulting lack of mobility has been exposed this season at times. He could play for longer periods if he were fitter and I use the example of Inga because he lost none of his devastating power as a runner when he lost weight. If anything the increased speed and muscle bulk added to his ability to smash through opposition defences. So yes, Feka is not as fit as he could be, whether that is a general observation or by reference to his position or role within the team.

In any event the question is not whether or not the team is fitter than it was 15 years ago but whether it is as fit as it could be.... you still haven't addressed the question of whether or not improvements can be made in this area....

But please, carry on ignoring the issues and asking yourself questions.

My point is that we almost lost half our games (44%). I wasn't the poster who said that we had lost half our games. The main point is that this is not good enough for Wigan. We will win more than 16 games next year.

It does seem surprising that Noble's Wigan sides always seem so inconsistent throughout the season up to the tail end of seasons/ play-off's.

Perhaps this is a Noble tactic? If it is and we win the GF I reckon a few of the "Pro-Noble" supporters will say it's a good tactic to employ, to hit form when it matters.

Perhaps then the criticism of Noble should be aimed more at the concept of the play-off's if, indeed, Noble purposely focuses only on the end of the season as that's all that matters and Noble is simply playing the league as he feels is the best way to achieve perceived success.

For fans who follow week in, week out this is much to our chagrin but is it because in all honesty the league is irrelevant?

The league wasn't irrelevant last season, or the season before, and it was a similar tale on both those occasions.

Anyway, I've had enough of this now. No more Noble chat from me until after this weekend's game. With luck I may be even more in the minority.

Just picking out the Feka debate, If you want to let Feka do what he did on Saturday then he is conditioned in the right way, however if you want him to last 60 mins a game he will lose weight to do this and need to be 'fitter' however you will have lost the very thing Feka was employed for. In his defence as well he now does more game time than he used to, so we have got him fitter than when he arrived. Against Castleford he came on at 20 mins and lasted to half time, did the first 5 mins after the break and came back on with 10 to go making 35 mins.

As Jukesays has put it he is sorted for what we want, we could slim him down but the coaching staff think he is most effective doing what he does.

It's not a case of just being fit, it is a case of having the correct team/squad to win and and having a 19 stone barrell of a man that breaks tackles all over the place is something Wigan want and I believe need.

Leeds have Ali, Stains have Maureen., Shudders have Crabtree and they all do the game time of Feka, so is he as fit as them?

As for overall fitness from 15-20 years ago......it's a different game played in a different way and therefore the players who do certain roles are conditioned in different way.

The whole debate is getting quite tiring now don't you think?

My personal take is that whatever happens in the remaining game(s), i'll thank Brian for what he's done for the club, wish him all the success in the future, and get behind whoever it is that takes over from him. I think there's not many more down to earth hard working guys around, and whether you feel he's succeeded, failed, or somewhere in between, i definitely think he did the best job he could.

Might be time for all of us to put it behind us, and look forward to the future.

Are you the Real Radio Renegade?



It's all well and good saying that Noble has his tactics spot on but his tactics need to be to finish as high up in the league as possible to give ourselves the best chance of going to OT and winning there.

In which case I don't see your point. We know he switched players because his f/b was suspended I don't see what this has got to do with dropping out of form players.



Why would it have been wrong? So what if it going to be rough? What has the rain got to do with it? In order to justify this stance at the time Nobby would have had to have had a crystal ball and as it happened we looked flat and devoid of ideas. If it was wrong to play him them why will he be in the team v Saints and if we win v Leeds? These games will be the more intense than that.



Then why not drop other players for similar or worse mistakes? In any case if that is why he dropped that is pretty appalling IMO as it makes no allowances at all for his inexperience yet at the same time mistakes by more experienced players go unpunished. If you are right in why he was dropped you have highlighted how he treats the younger players compared to the senior players.



So why did he not drop Phelps for waiting for a ball to roll dead and letting the opposition touch down between his legs? Or why not Roberts who has had several games where he has been at least as defensively suspect as Ainscough? What about Feka or Riddell who look unfit? You can't argue the young players got dropped for mistakes when the senior players make the same mistakes and keep their places. It's double standards from Noble.



As I said he was able to drop Coley and had opportunities to drop other props before O'Carroll got injured. Regardless of form he didn't.



That is the most over used cliche in the whole debate. We didn't actually get relegated. We finished just outside the playoffs in 2006 in 8th place having been docked two points for salary cap breaches which would have seen us 7th. If you consider going from 8th to 6th in three years worthwhile progress losing 11 or 12 games a season you are easily pleased.



That has not been the situation all season and you know it. Nor was it been the situation in 2007 and 2008 and yo know that too.



Where did Mossop end up on loan? Another SL side. The standard of NL1 is not SL and young players have been brought into SL sides by other teams and what is more to the point when Noble has no choice it has worked here at Wigan. The best two examples are the Tomkins brothers who got extended runs and made a go of it. I don't have a problem with players going out on loan but it isn't the only way to do things.



It's not a major problem if you handle it right. There was no justifiable ( use the word deliberately) reason to drop Ainscough. What I expect to see is players picked on form and rewarded for good play.

With a few exceptions if a player comes in for an injured or suspended player then regardless of his age if he does well he should keep his place and the first team player should have to earn his place back. If the young player fades after a few games then he has lost his place for a reason not because he automatically gets dropped as soon as the 1st team player is fit.

The bottom line is we have a large squad at Wigan with no competition for places under Noble.

Dave

Thats what happens at every club in the league and in most cases every club in sport. Its not a Noble thing, its a sports management thing.

IF we have got him fitter than when he arrived, without apparently harming his ability to smash through defences then why not see if we can get him a bit fitter?

Here my attempt at a potted history since BN came to the club and my views on what has been good and bad. I’ll admit that these are not all facts (some of them are) and some are my opinion. It’s just me trying to get a balanced view so I can come to a conclusion on whether he should stay or go.

1. When he arrived we were completely in the mire and looking a dead cert for relegation
2. A couple of players arrived after his appointment
3. We escaped relegation after a miraculous recovery in form
4. Started 2007 quite poorly losing 3 out of the first 4 league games
5. We were inconsistent in the middle part of the season
6. Had a shocking Cup Semi against Catalans
7. Won 4 drew 1 of our last 5 league games
8. Excellent play off until ran out of petrol at Leeds
9. Started 2008 slightly better losing 3 out of first 6 league games
10. Couldn’t manage to string a decent run of wins throughout the season, even at the end
11. Another excellent play off, running out of steam again at Leeds
12. Awful start to 2009 losing 7 out of first 10 league games
13. Decent cup run until another poor Semi
14. Excellent end of season winning 8 out of 10 league games
15. Excellent play off so far

Upside and mitigating factors:
Had to work with an underpowered pack throughout his tenure
Lost Barratt part way through his contract
Saints usually on fire against us
Play offs been reached each season apart from 2006
Some absolutely storming performances
Academy and Reserves set up very strong
Some good young players coming through

Downside:
Start of the season seems to come as a surprise
Too much inconsistency
Too many players apparently not reaching their potential
Too many absolutely awful performances
Poor player discipline
Lack of moves/coherent play
Little evidence of plan B
Team out enthused too often
Little progress made with the first team
Puzzling team selections

I think there has been good and bad, with escaping relegation and the excellence of the junior teams being the main upsides, but these have been outweighed by the downsides. We have also put in some stunning performances, which is a two edged sword in that you could ask why we couldn’t do that more often. That question is the main reason I think Brian should go. He certainly has stabilised the club, and being in the lower reaches of the league, (at season’s end at least) looks to now be in the past. However, we seem to be lacking that little bit of extra something to take us to the next level. I don’t know what that is, but to me it is becoming apparent that Brian, despite the immense amount of work he puts in, doesn’t either. I’m sure that this squad, with only a little strengthening is capable of reaching higher.

So Brian thanks for your efforts, I’ll always be grateful for getting us out of the mire and putting us on an even keel. You have been the longest serving coach at the club for some time and I think the club is in better shape than when you came. However, I think the time has come for us to part, I think the club and you will benefit from fresh starts. Even though there have been no trophies at first team level, IMO you can leave with your head held high with the good wishes and applause of the vast majority of Wigan fans ringing in your ears.

Thank god Noble won't be here next year, Long has just revealed on BBC Manc that he was offered a contract by us but turned it down because he didn't know who the coach would be next year. Dodged a bullet there.

I imagine they have worked out incresing his 'fitness' will reduce his effectiveness if its taken any further.

He is probably at his optimum weight to fitness for the job we want him to do.

OK, let's just agree to disagree on this one. In attack he is a fearsome sight for any opposition but I hope his lack of mobility in defence after he's been on for a few minutes is not exposed by Saints tomorrow.

Presumably he left out the bit about wanting more money than Wigan were prepared to pay him.

I am not sure you read the bit of my post you quoted properly if you are suggesting Noble does what I said.

What I said was:

"With a few exceptions if a player comes in for an injured or suspended player then regardless of his age if he does well he should keep his place and the first team player should have to earn his place back. If the young player fades after a few games then he has lost his place for a reason not because [ihe automatically gets dropped as soon as the 1st team player is fit[/i."

Noble does not do the bits in bold but does do the bit in italics.

This IMO leads inevitably to what I said next which was:

"The bottom line is we have a large squad at Wigan with no competition for places under Noble. "

Dave

When I read your summary, which was vary fair I thought, the above stood out for me because it highlights something I have been trying to express for a while now.

People who think Nobby is great and should stay mention two things constantly. Avoiding relegation and the playoff form.

These represent extremes and if you want to see the real picture what you do in statistics is to ignore the extreme values as they distort the overall picture. If you want to see the real trends remove the exceptional results and look at the rest.

If you do this with Nobby's time here its does not look so good. Of course we are all excited by the playoffs so why should you remove them form consideration? You do so because if you want to really be challenging for the trophy's you need to get the consistency and performance up across the season and just looking at the relegation year or semi final appearances masks what is really going on.

Dave

Dave,

You clearly didnt read my post then, ill try again. All coaches do that in all sports. I will list some examples:

Daniel Anderson always brought Long etc back into the team straight away saying "they had enough credits with him to play"

Watkins did okay at Leeds didn't he? But when Senior was fit, he was straight back in, Bluey must have got that one wrong as well I assume...

Now, one more - Sir Alex Ferguson, Rio Ferdinand has had a few injury problems as of late, but as soon as he is fit Johnny Evans/Wes Brown are dropped for Ferdinand, as are other players. Last year would he leave Ronaldo out if Ji Sung Park had played well the week before - NO. Danny Welbeck is another example, the lad scored against Wolves in the league cup the other week, so by your theory should keep his place, what happened - Wayne Rooney came back in. So is Fergie wrong as well, or do you just limit this bizarre line of blame at Noble's door.

So is reaching semi finals not challenging for trophies? Just out of interest, because I want to bare that in mind for when the new coach takes over.

Or the length of contract we offered.

Is reaching the third round challenging?

The club at the start of the season will have a list of goal. Some clubs like Hull kr did this year will publicise them, some wont.

If come the end of the season BN has reached those goals, then why not extend his contract? If he hasnt, why not? And why extend his contract?

news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 286350.stm Don't know if Long can be taken seriously, but if this is true it rather confirms noble's perceived mistrust of young talent.

news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 286350.stm Don't know if Long can be taken seriously, but if this is true it rather confirms noble's perceived mistrust of young talent.

Explain.

I said [ireally[/i be challenging for trophies. To do that IMO you have to challenge from a position of strength not be doing so on a wing and a prayer hoping you are not too shattered due to starting from 6th.

Dave

I've not read that article, and frankly I can't be bothered reading it. But there's a generally perceived wisdom that it's best not to take seriously anything Sean Long says.

Skilled player or not, his antics (in very recent times, not just when he was a kid) have brought embarrassment to the game as a whole. That's not something you can say Brian Noble has ever done.