Probably right there. As I said last night, I'm not saying Smith is or isn't any good, I just want to see him behind a decent pack before I judge him.

Put any other half back in from SL in place of Smith and were still rubbish, we might be a little less rubbish who knows, but still rubbish.

Paul Sculthorpe comments (and I haven't wat hed it myself yet so taking the words on here as gospel) are exactly what I've been saying for pretty much 2 and 1/2 years.

Exactly, Dodds is playing at the back of a better pack and in a better all round squad than Smith.

To make comparisons of these two young and good players at the present time is nonsense!


And any adverse comments by Sculthorpe about Wigan might have more to do with him having a chip on his shoulder about his son being not being signed from the Academy rather than the game itself.

Barry McDermott is another as a result of being got rid of by the club.

Sculthorpe’s comments were respectful but damning. Big difference to him just gobbing off.

Swap Smith and Dodds last night and Smith wins man of the match and everyone raves about him. I thought he did ok last night as it was but no halfback is going to be able to play on the back of that absolute shambles of a front row and under this absolute shambles of a coach.

Good god almighty have you heard yourself? Sculthorpe’s comments are fuelled by his son being released?

And you have the sheer cheek to criticise the clubs running but won’t have criticism of the players or coach.

Hypocrite of the highest calibre.

Exactly

Have a position and make the facts (or in truth make up the facts) to suit that position
Despite it being hypocritical or contradictory and when facts are thrown back just ignore them

See, I'm not really convinced abut that. Obviously, Smith would benefit (a lot) from having a better squad around him and a better coach, but I don't think you can lay all the blame for his poor decisions, loose passes and wayward kicks on the catch-all "playing behind a beaten pack". I wouldn't write him off, he clearly has talent. It remains to be seen if another coach can make a top half out of him.

I’m absolutely convinced. Look how he player against Leigh, well that last night was as big a miss match the other way but we defend better than Leigh.

Smith will be fine if we get a better pack and a better coach to help him and the rest of the players. He’s in the eye of a storm at the minute and he’s struggling but Wigan back good young players and he’ll get what he needs in that regard.

Bang on I thought the same too you could almost see he wanted to just say “are they good enough”but held back for the reason you state,it’s about time the media started to cast its beady eye toward Wigan all too often they paper over the cracks and move on.

The criticism of the club and its players was spot on.

Apart from the obvious errors he makes it’s his attitude that for me is the biggest issue.

Dodds last night was very much the junior half in the Saints pairing. Lomax is a very dominant half.

Did Dodds sit back and let Lomax boss the show? No. He actually had a dig and looked to make things happen and tried, successfully at times to take the game by the scruff of the neck.

Smith seems all too happy letting Hastings boss it and just sitting back and playing a bit part.

I know of no quality half of any age that is comfortable just sitting back and hiding behind others.

Smith may well benefit from a new coach but I think he may benefit more from a new partner who is less dominant.

I’m not writing him off but I’m obviously not impressed so far. There needs to be a lot of improvement in his game fundamentals and his ability to manage and control a game.

Dodds did look good at times and Smith had a torrid time. So how many games has Dodd played in the past 5-6 weeks? Smith has played if not every game almost all. Like last night he's played in the middle behind a very well beaten pack. He hasn't a hope of showing what he can do.

Who on earth thought that Havard, Shorrocks & Partington could take the game to the Saints pack is plain wrong. As soon as I saw Lam's front row I thought we'd lose with 20 at best and 30 at worst. Besides, rain or shine, home or away we play the same way. Have done for years too. We are so easy to defend against and don't appear to have any sustainable game plan or tactics.

Not heard Scully's comments but did he mention the difference between the packs in age and experience? That surely was the defining decision made by the Wigan club. Sent out a pack full of young inexperienced players who've been absolutely flogged over these past weeks and expect them to play a winning game. Just about as wrong as you can be!

Nothing will be sorted until the more experienced props are played each week with long minutes. Only then can we assess how good the pack is.

Smith is playing behind a beaten team and Shorrocks should be playing at loose forward as he's the only Wigan player with the ball skills to play there

I haven't heard Sculthorpe's comments but I doubt he will have said anything too far off the mark. We've all known our pack isn't good enough at the moment. I do think it's harsh to write off any of the young players given none of them are at the age where they should be at their peak. It's not a case that these youngsters will never be good enough, it's that no player is likely to be at their best at 20, 21 or 22 and a pack consisting mostly of players that age definitely isn't going to be good enough.

The problem is we can't realistically keep playing all these young players at the same time, partly because they are all best suited to the same position.

Bateman, if KPP keeps playing second row, can then only play 13. That gives us one smaller player down the middle but at least he can be a threat with ball in hand. He's an 80 minute player though, so how do our other 13's get a look in?
Partington isn't big enough to be a prop. Maybe if we had some monster front rowers he would be, but really he's a 13 who focuses on defence more than offence. He offers something, but in the context of our squad does he offer enough?
Smithies is similar to Partington. Too small for prop but good enough at 13. Ideally we would have one from Partington or Smithies and when you compare their work rate in defence and attack Smithies comes out on top. On numerous occasions we've played both, which robs our middles of size.
Shorrocks is another whose best position is 13. I think he's incredibly underrated and currently the playing the best of the players I've mentioned. He's an excellent ball player and offers something different from our other 13's along with equally good defence, but there's still the same problem - how do you fit him in the team with the players above?
Havard also should probably be playing 13 with our props being two more established players, but at least Havard is more suited to prop than Partington.

And we'll probably have Isa signed up on a new contract for next season, as if we need another small back row forward.

We've got some really good young players, and some okay ones, but when we try to play all of them at the same time we don't have a good team, and the performance of the team is the most important thing.

As for Smith, he's got 12 assists in 18 starts. I think Hastings has something like 16 in 17. Not a massive gulf considering one is a former man of steel and generally considered to be the only quality playmaker we have. Hastings has found it tough to make an impact at times this year, and this is someone who stood out while playing for Salford. If it's tough for Hastings then imagine how it is for a young player in his first full season. I don't think Smith is anywhere near as bad as some people make out. I don't know if he'll be good enough in the long run, but he's not currently in an environment that would allow a young half to thrive.

He basically said there is zero penetration in the Wigan pack, some of the younger forwards weren't ready and should ideally be playing reserve grade. Perfectly fair comments imo.

Smithies and Partington in particular have been ridiculously overhyped. Pundits were touting them as world beaters in 2019 simply because they worked hard and tackled fearlessly for their age. Not remotely convinced in either of them. Havard and Pearce-Paul clearly have potential and Shorrocks at least tries to promote the ball at times. I also think that Liam Byrne could well take a giant step forward in the next season or two - a little like Paul Prescott did a decade or so ago.

No halfback can play behind this Wigan pack and be successful there's no dominance from the props especially,Bullock should have started as he was our most senior prop last night

Lewis Dodd isn't just rated by SKY he is very highly rated by Saints and will probably take Fages's place on a regular basis

Where was Hastings last night he created nothing as he always does against the top teams he also gets tackled in the possession to often as well and that's no use in a halfback as it takes him out of the next play

I think last night was one game you can’t lay any blame on Hastings. He was busy getting stuck in because a lot around him weren’t, whilst also taking punishment every time he had the ball. He stood up when others didn’t.

Whenever i saw him in his younger days against players of his same age Smith really stood out so maybe(hopefully) when we get the 2 Aussie props in next season then he will have a pack in front of him with more go forward

Whenever i saw him in his younger days against players of his same age Smith really stood out so maybe(hopefully) when we get the 2 Aussie props in next season then he will have a pack in front of him with more go forward

That’s because Hastings is literally our only threat and teams know exactly that.

Teams know 100% where ever he is he gets the ball so it is easy to defend and snuff out the threat.

Lam gets the blame for that, but so does Smith seems more than happy to take a back seat and stay out of the firing line rather than offering an alternative option.

We should stick with Smith IMO. He is hit and miss right now but there is talent there to nurture. That is only going to happen by giving him more experience. Not every halfback is going to walk in and boss it every week like Tomkins and Williams did. If we stopped picking Smith or let him go I'm convinced he would come back to bite us elsewhere.

I just wouldn’t over judge anyone in the current set up. To call anyone a write off or to even big somebody up under the current coach is a pointless exercise IMO. We have a bloke in charge who is utterly clueless and who finds it impossible to get the best out of anyone, so how can we be too harsh on anybody.

A player I would throw at everyone when it comes to not judging too harshly under a poor coach is Dom Peyroux in his time at Saints. The guy was a laughing stock under Cunningham, a joke of a signing for Saints. Holbrook comes in and in no time he turns him in to one of the better second rowers in superleague. At Saints under Cunningham guys like Makinson, Percival, Lomax, Thompson, Knowles etc were all doing ok, some good games, some not so good and were generally drifting. They went up a few levels under Holbrook and Saints fans now think most would make a World 13.

100% correct

I haven't made my mind up on Smith yet
But if we kept Lam and bought any half back in the world very little would change (ok, of course we would be better in certain ways but we've seen it with wire/Hull etc that a star player doesn't make a TEAM).

Keep Smith and bring in a very good coach as tou say above we will improve and individually we will see if certain players inc Smith are up to it whilst also seeing us improve.

Best player ot best coach, if I could pick i would take Abest coach every day ofntje week.