Is that maybe going to be a bit easier once he's a little older and more established? I know some players like Partington and Smithies did it from their debut but Havard might need to settle in before coming out of his shell.

I’ll take Havard every day and on Sunday’s too over Partington and Smithies. Only Havard of those three will have a long career at the top. The other two are limited in every area. Smithies in particular needs to have a good year or he’ll just be another numbnuts in a team like Wakefield.

Gotta admit I'm a little confused on this one. Havard makes the most yards out of our pack, despite the fact he's only 20 and yet he's been labelled as a concern earlier in the thread?

If you look at the majority of the top props in the game, they are mostly level headed at the min. I can't remember the last time someone like Papalii, or Jason Taumalolo did anything other than make massive yards. That's what sets them apart imo, not the other stuff.

The so called 'mongrel' in players is a dying art, just look at the weekend headlines for Jared Waerea-Hargreaves for a perfect example.

It’s far from a concern, he’s a brilliant player. It’s simply an observation that he’s yet to show if he does have that side or not and if he does then the sky is the limit. I get your points with JT and JP but they’re hugely aggressive in defence and attack with the force they put in to their running and tackling. I’m not saying Havard should be laying cheap shots on people or starting scraps, I’m simply wondering if he’s got that instinct inside him to absolutely wallop somebody in defence and get a real enjoyment out of it, the way that you can sense somebody like Partington does. If he has that side then wow, we’ve got something very special indeed.

Harvard makes big meters but at the moment and he is a wonderful prospect but to take his game to the next level he needs to improve his contact in defence as he isn’t particularly hurtful in and also his play the ball isn’t very quick.

He makes great meters yes and is still only a baby in real terms.

Having the mongrel in them is nothing to do with what JWH did at the weekend it is being spiteful and hurtful in contact. One of his and all good Props job is to soften up a team when they have the ball.

That is the area he needs to improve, some can and do but it tends to be a thing you have naturally. I’ve not seen it yet in him.

As I mentioned Coley seemed to stagnate a little when we signed him from
Salford. He joined with a rep of being one of the gun props in the league who needed to step up, and whilst he went about his business efficiently he never developed into his full potential until Madge arrived where he added that aggressive side to his game.

Harvard needs to add that, it is one main thing lacking in his play.

He adds that and we could have a very special player on our hands.

Props at Wigan get a very easy ride. If you can be solid in defence and make 40m a game you're one of the first names on the sheet.

For years now we've flogged our back rowers and outside backs at the expense of props doing any real work.

It's embarrassing when you compare them to actual props who not only do the same work in defence but also do 3x the work with the ball.

I've said for ages what's the actual point in us even having props? Just sign a few more second rowers and play them in that position.

So what? He is down as 3 carries.

His carries are very low, but we don't know what he's been told to do or how to play.
He's the 4th highest tackler with 37. Personally I wouldn't play him at 13.

Do the stats show possession rate whilst they were on the field, if we only had 20% possession when player x was on the field then they would probably be lower than player y if we had 80% possession when y was on the field, not sure where to look for stats

Don't think they exist mate, I've never even seen a stat for minutes played, never mind who had the ball during those minutes. I do think it's forgivable for a forward to have a low number of carries if he made lots of tackles though, and vice versa.

Agree with the previously mentioned "Props get an easier ride at Wigan" For years we had backs that made 100 mtrs plus with Gelling Charnley and Sarginson. They, and other backs, made a large contribution to the squad's meters gained stat,
Now most of our backs are missing those filling their places can't and won't make those meters.
That leaves only one option and that is the props step up.
Now if we all know this then the opposition coaches will most certainly know it.
The remedy is for the coaching staff to change the tactics slightly to allow the props or meter maker more space and opportunity to gain ground.
Wakefield have some big men in their pack and their backs are hardly small either.
This game is as much a challenge for the coaching staff as the players and I'm more than certain they are capable of it.

Sutton for Canberra ran for 177 meters and made 47 tackles. When can we expect something similar from our props?

Didn't people say he wasn't good enough for Wigan?

calculate metres different over there

They do, I think they do it from when they catch the ball, not positive post line advantage meters.

Either way he is turning into an outstanding player. With both ball in hand and in defence.

I have to say I was never a massive fan of his until his last year at Wigan when I thought he was fantastic. Prior to that he seemed to make a lot of basic errors and put a lot of ball down.

Thought when he got his chances last year at Canberra he showed up really well, but so far this year he has taken his game to another level. He looks to have been working very hard in the gym too.

I’m not sure he is a prop these days though. Even in the days of “middles” he looks to be playing more like a secondrow/loose rather than a prop/loose.

On current form I’d have to say though he should be nailed on for an England shirt probably the starting 13 shirt.

maybe they will

Sutton doesn’t even look like the same bloke anymore. He is a prime athlete now, who looks to have decided to commit and push himself. In his time here he was carrying a spare tyre round and played within himself. He was still a good player but a move to the NRL always seemed to be the plan and now he’s got it, he’s giving it everything he has. Fair play to him, he’s a cracking prop now and will make the England squad for the World Cup IMO.

You are right. Only 66 post contact meters.so he must be running from a long way back. Assuming contact is in front of the gain line he must still be up around the 100 meter mark. as well as getting 3 tackle busts.

To be fair regarding his weight/fat it’s easy to forget he was only 22 when he left us, still very much a baby in real terms and some of that weight he would have been carrying would have been both puppy fat and also probably required to help him cope with the physicality at such a young age in his position. Remember Andy Faz when he came though being a totally different shape to the Faz we saw in his peak playing years.

At 25 now he has grown into himself and entered that period where he is able to lose that and reveal his natural playing weight condition.

I wouldn’t expect it will be an indication on him working any harder, just conditioning his body to the stage of his development.

He does look in fantastic condition now.

There’s definitely an element of that I’m sure. I’m probably too hard on him but I always sensed we had a lad who just coasted a little bit but even doing that, he was a good player for us and did a great job at such a young age. I can’t say I’m convinced he’d be in the condition he is now had he stayed here just through naturally shedding puppy fat but maybe I’m cynical. He knew he’d be moving to the NRL for that 2019 season prior to us starting our season in 2018 and it was no coincidence he got himself in much better shape for that last season with us.

That ship has sailed with Sutton anyway. He did a good job for us so fair play and he’s turning in to a top player now and I’m happy to see it. I don’t think we’ll ever see him back in superleague from the noises he makes but I look forward to seeing how he gets on for England.

Agreed. He has improved every aspect of his game, and looks a top forward these days.

Are you joking?

Don't you know that props can only do one of either tackle or make meters? It's IMPOSSIBLE to do both.

Kind regards,
Adrian Lam and Shaun Wane

In fairness when you take in to consideration the way they’re counting them metres, Ethan Havard has been doing that most weeks since he came in to the first team.

And Canberra were down to one bench player after about 20mins. Great by Sutton but due to circumstances he had to do a lot more than usual.

Wane: 'I like props who find the floor quickly'.