same as salford but they got the challenge cup this year and grand final last year, Salford had an average of 400 fans more than leigh in 2019 and would have had hardly any away support compared to what Salford got.

It was on the cards almost as soon as they started. The Denver fiasco should have sounded the alarm, followed by the 2025 WC being taken away just proved there wasn't the base to provide the money. I wasn't a fan of the Dragons experiment (especially after that trip in 2006 & the 4 hour wait for the damned aircraft afterwards), but they've actually got that one right.
Give Toulouse relegation exemption for the same period & strengthen the European game overall. Then we might actually get some proper competititve internationals without traipsing across the planet.
& while they're at it, put the 2025 WC in & around the Pyrenees & have the final in Barcelona - that's a 2 or 3 week package I'd buy into.

Salford have made two finals in two years, hardly stagnant.

Cas and Wakey have been promising a new stadium since the day of Christ. Fev/Leigh are lucky to fill a stand.

The sooner we get out of the con that is Featherstone v Wakefield would attract the masses the better. Rugby league pulling out of Toronto has only given rise to RU to step in on the growing thunder of RL. Years from now we’ll bemoan hhow great and successful RU in America is whilst wondering why we never managed to get big. Well, here it is.

I'd have kept Toronto, but given some statements (if true) I can understand the reluctance of clubs to allow them to return. It's a massive step backwards and it proves the both the RFL & SL need to be overhauled in terms of his they "run" the game. I'd trust my 13 yr old westie to do a better job and he's currently snoring away at my feet.

If they go to 12 teams, I sense it needs to be a commercially driven decision. Unfortunately, money was tight before, now it's about as common as common sense in RL.

Personally I'd go to 14 teams, add York, Toulouse and one of London/Fev/Leigh, almost using the franchise system to decide viability and benefits to SL.

But Leigh and Fev have been in the championship, so they seem to be doing ti right off the pitch and not given the chances on it unlike Salford, give them the same time and resources and maybe you will get more as they are hotbeds for rugby. RU has been going for a lot longer than RL in America and still not booming so doubt it is going to take off due to Toronto failing. RL has hardly boomed since London (far bigger, richer and local than Toronto) was in SL, in fact id argue its gone backwards since expanding in both France, Wales and London.

RU are going into North America as a sport - not as a league & it's a massive difference that people really need to understand. The Gallagher Premiership have ventured over to the US, with a goal of finding new commercial partners, not to lay the groundwork for a US based Premiership side. The US has its own league and the focus of the IRB is to grow that league, not to assimilate it into something thousands of miles away. If RU gets big, then that's why.

I think the old saying "you don't build a house on shaky foundations" rings true for SL at this moment in time.

I've said it a million times, but if SL wants to grow then it needs to improve the product on the filed. The quest for competitiveness has come at the expense of quality. The RFL needs to look at Friday's game and say - that's the benchmark, how do we replicate that week on week and also improve on it?

Imo I'd actually like to see a league of 10 teams, with either licencing brought back or P&R scrapped. Let's build from a solid foundation of 10 quality teams, each with infrastructure like academies and possibly A-Teams. Deliver matches on the level of Friday week in an week out and the game will grow.

Thought would need to be given to filling the lost revenue of one home game per club, but that would be somewhat balanced out by the Sky money being distributed around a smaller number of clubs.

I posted on the VT regards the tv deal that too many clubs in RL are happy to sit and collect the tv money without actually doing anything and you've nailed it with the ones you mention.

Their downfalls don't mean a team in Canada with very little RL history are a good idea. We have tried converting RU players/fans in Wales and now gridiron in Canada.

Let's look closer to home. Toulouse, York or Newcastle for me but it has to be done as a long term project in the same way Catalans was.

Doing it right off the pitch? How? They get hardly any fans, and are lucky to have one full stand never mind stadium!

London are starting to produce academy products and promising ones as well. The problem isn’t in setting up a new club in “non heartland” cities; it’s the whole mantra of the sport. The whole way we actively want these clubs to fail and laugh when they do. How the RFL/SL constantly change tact, I’m a RL die hard and can barely keep up, how do we expect non RL fans to?

We sit and wonder why our sport isn’t growing as it should. Well which of these sounds like a match you’d want to watch? Leeds v Toronto or Castleford v Wakefield? Wigan v Newcastle or Salford v Featherstone? London v Toronto or Huddersfield v Hull KR?

The sooner we rid the game of the flat cappers who bemoan the fact we’re a northern sport with no money whilst also laughing at and celebrating the demise of a truly innovative and forward thinking expansionist club, the better. For too long they’ve held the sport back.

Toulouse have just released a 4 minute video that can be found on YouTube outlining the reasons why they should be in. I’ve got to be honest it sold the idea to me but maybe I’m an easy win. To me they bring the most to the table from a growth point of view but people will have reasons for not wanting them in. We need a stronger France to kick the game on and the opportunity is there to help facilitate that.

Well worth a watch (not a clue how to post the link).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h7R1K41eNOc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h7R1K41eNOc

I’d have Toulouse in.

Don’t get me wrong, Toronto were less than ideal. The ideal situation was a pro AMNRL league but realistically that takes years if not decades to build and get going, even longer to get the standards of play up to scratch and youth systems in place (something which rather embarrassingly flat cappers wanted immediately from Toronto).

I’d like to see Newcastle, London and York in there as well but the talent spread just isn’t there as it stands.

Like I said for a championship side they had 3200 last year as an average against 3600 at Salford with more away support, Cas V wakey out of them games, but you want a team In Toronto who ran out of money?......flat clappers are putting more into the sports than the flash in the pan men who are doing it for publicity or hobby instead of love of the sport

When was the last time anything Fev did make the news? Get people talking and interested?

I’ll wait.

Yes I want a team in Toronto. I also want teams in every major city in the world. Why do you not? Why do you want a sport confined to the M62 and two Australian states?

Doing it for publicity is EXACTLY what the sport needs. Eric Perez did it for the love of the sport and the publicity. To get our sport out there to the masses in North America, to get it international recognition, to bring in more money and new fans. To turn people’s heads and get them interested. All of which he achieved. They ran out of money due to a pandemic that no one could plan for. They weren’t entitled to any money from the RFL or the Gvt. Were they mismanaged? Absolutely. They ran before they could walk but they added a new interest to RL and actually widened the sports appeal.

But yeah, let’s bring in Fev or Leigh who are doing alright in the championship

Reading the BBC report it seems the RFL and/or SL didn't do due diligence on Toronto's financial status when they were first admitted. I could not believe it when I read that. This is another screw up along the lines of saying Bradford were financially sound before they went bust when we had the franchise model.

It also seems the clubs who voted against readmission were concerned the financial projections from the new owners were not believable so they voted to avoid the chance of a repeat performance next year. Given the covid situation is not likely to be resolved quickly I can understand that it would be a huge risk to readmit them and that is before you start asking questions about is it right a club that drops out can just waltz back in regardless of where they are from. It's a pity its all gone wrong but given this is RL it's not that much of a surprise.

I never said Fev I said Leigh, funny how you are slagging fev as flat cappers yet they back you over Toronto, 3 Australian states....I dont want it comfined on the M62, never said I did I dont think, go and find my post that said I did and I will take it back. He was doing it for his own publicity, hes a multi billionaire but said he ran out of money, yeah ok.....How did Perez achieve it as you say? Has he brought in more money? (bearing in mind they ran out of it). I dont know how you think it has widened the sports appeal? All the good you think Toronto did has been undone with all its negative headlines but you want that brushed under the carpet. Clubs who have been doing it without the money from Sky but still making good signings during the pandemic instead of crying off like Toronto did but lets dismiss them as they arent a big city team.

Youd rather get rid off all the teams except Leeds, Hull, Salford, Wakefield and Catalans and replace them all with City teams?

My view is, a shame, but not surprising. Seems the majority of SL clubs felt like Lenagan, and voted against (but not Saints?). The project always looked dubious to me in the long term, and in the current covid climate, with the sport struggling for survival, it hardly comes as a shock.

Pretty much this.

I’d pick either London or Toulouse. London would have to find a proper ground first though.

That would be cool 2 holidays in France every season

It hadn’t crossed my mind

I said people wanting Fev in over Toronto.

He was doing it for the love of the sport, as quoted many times. I said it was mis managed (by Argyle)

10,000 new fans in Toronto at games. Championship games as well. Mass upset in Toronto about the situation from Toronto residents. But yeah they haven’t widened the appeal.

I haven’t brushed anything under the carpet. They were mis managed, I even said they ran before they could walk.

Salford have been deducted 6pts for financial mis management. Hull KR have dropped out the league. Catalans refusing to relocate. Saints refusing to travel. Yet what is all this met with? Barely a slap on the wrists.

Yes. I’d have Wakefield thrown out on their heels. How many years have they been promising a new stadium? How many years have they been borderline laughable? Cas had a mini revival but have gone down the pan too. The same applies to them. Embarrassing stadiums and offer next to nothing to the sport. So yes if it came down to it I’d have rid of those perpetual under performers, over promisers and under deliverers and bring in those who offer promise and growth. Other than a nice stadium, a good coach and a few odd surprises (making 2 finals), I struggle to see what Salford offer. You won’t find me calling for Leeds, Catalans or Hull to go and to suggest so is a bit silly.

In short, get rid of these clubs who are happy being mediocre and never do anything to grow themselves or the sport. They’re the problem.

The other massive issue I have is how these clubs even had a vote. It’s a bit rich them voting down Toronto when they’re so bloody poor themselves. This sport will never grow outside the M62 unless we are ruthless and demand high standards of performance, facilities and financial growth from our clubs. Standards that the likes of us, Saints, Leeds*, Warrington and Hull* consistently deliver. The RFL bizarrely drove down standards to give clubs like Wakey, Cas, KR and Salford a chance. Where has that got us? Nowhere.

Rid the RFL of its inept leaders. Rid SL of Elstone and bring in people who actually have a bit about them and want to grow our sport.

I honestly wished I liked football or RU. If I did, RL would be nothing more than an after thought to me. And if I (and many others) feel that way, why should anyone who is nothing more than a passive fan care one jot?

Edit: just to add, I’m not having a go at you. You have an opinion and I do, it just so happens they’re on the opposite ends of the scale. I’m really frustrated at how backward thinking we are as a sport whilst pretending we’re forward thinkers and innovative.

Hull KR havent dropped out of the league just stopped this week, they obviously knew the new structure was happening, same could be said for Salford and Saints as they both refused games this year. You said they voted Toronto out? why not they earned their places and they are the league, Toronto would have had a vote on someone else if they could have kept their house in order.

Licensing drove this and its something we agree on, I think its the best way to go, make sure clubs run an acadmey provide financial stability, Im still astounded Wakey dont spend the full cap and they are given full funding for it from SKY. Wakey and Cas should be omitted as they promised them grounds years ago and still never happened. Not many SL and ex SL clubs over this side of the pennines with poor facilities yet look over to the dark side and its littered with them.

Again I agree with the RFL, it should be be brought back together at the SL split has made things worse since the split really. Elstone is garbage.

We havent been innovative for 20 years and is a big bug bare of mine. When RU turned professional and did things right we sat back thinking we are ok and missed the train

As a fully professional sport I believe we are on borrowed time. That was before the pandemic.

Time some stopped living in a world of make belief and faced the reality about the strength of Rugby League in our country and indeed France since Rugby Union became fully professional in 1995.

The game needs to consolidate by forming bigger and stronger clubs in its own backyard of Europe before you can even consider new clubs in other continents!

to be fair I think club rugby in this country is close to popping with the debts run up