Exactly, no comparison today, even at at St Helens!

I’m a massive fan of Burgess, at his best he is the best in SL imo.

The problem is we’ve not seen his best for quite a while, I think a big part of that is down to injuries. He said himself he was playing with injuries for most of last season, in turn that affected his confidence.

I told you near the start of the thread what the problem is with Burgess. He has lost his speed. That was what made him a good winger. He wont get that speed back now.

To be fair to the guy I don't think that had a single chance to show his pace.
He didn't have a great game but when Manfredi is fit he will have to step up his game or he will end up in the reserves.
I'm still hopeful that he can recapture his mojo.

Wigan: Joe Burgess is the fastest player in the squad

The_Enforcer: Joe Burgess has lost his speed

Everyone:

I was the fastest player over 100m in every team I played in, including some backs who ended up playing SL/Champ, but it counted for precisely sod all most of the time because in rugby you seldom get a long distance to just run unhindered. Good for interceptions, kick returns, chasing down opposition breaks and supporting your own breaks but that's only a small part of wing play, especially in tight games. Far more interested in his speed over 10 metres, the speed he can get up and play the ball, the force he can generate from scoots.

Because he is the fastest in the squad (if you believe what the club are saying) does not mean he has not lost his speed.

Lost his speed = Not as fast as he used to be.

Mackinson wouldn't be jack poop if the corner flags had never been taken out of play, Nothing more than a showboater

I like Makinson, he’s a very good player but it’ll be interesting to see if him and a number of other Saints players can maintain that level they reached under Holbrook. He dragged every bit of talent out of them and whilst Saints fans would have you believe they have superstars from 1-17, the facts are that for the majority of their careers a number of those lads have been average and plodded along. The new coach has made a good impression with Tonga and has got them playing for each other, so they may well continue to play at those levels.

plus Gilly is injured, Manfredi not 100 percent and French must have still been in Aus

Johnstone better than Makinson? Wow.

I think Holbrook did well coaching Makinson to a match-winning hat-trick against NZ, with a supreme try saving tackle thrown in.

England didn't miss him at all in the autumn.

At the moment you’d have to say Makinson is the best British winger. I can’t see anyone else good enough to take that mantle presently. Burgess and Manfredi were up there, probably ahead of Makinson once upon a time but form and injuries respectively put Makinson ahead.

Go on, for the sake of discussion, I'll bite. Given he did those things under Holbrook's tenure I would argue that he did coach him to those levels and feats. Unless,of course, you're arguing that Holbrook had no impact on Makinson and it was all down to the coaching he got from Bennett and he wouldn't have been at the standard necessary without said coaching?

Makinson is a golden boot winner.

Burgess cant defend for toffee

Whilst factually correct, thats a very flimsy argument

That award means nothing anymore

Yep

Not yet he isn’t however if he remains injury free and continues to develop as he is he will be.

He is as good a finisher, has a better carry but needs to work on defence in particular positional play.

Nothing major and in teams at the top end of the table it probably wouldn’t be exposed as much but once he sorts that out he will be the best winger in SL.

We did miss him of course, he’s a very fine player.

Had Makinson not been coached by Holbrook though, do you think he would’ve reached the level he has? I don’t and that goes for the levels reached by guys like Lomax, Fages, Thompson, Peyroux and so on. Had Cunningham still been in charge for example, do you still think Makinson would’ve been in a position to get that England hatrick?!

It isn’t a criticism to say Holbrook was a fantastic coach and has had a huge impact on the careers of a number of Saints players. It’s an absolute fact and it will be interesting to see if they can keep that momentum going.

Good point. Who was Burgess racing against, Willie Isa?

Marshall is fairly fast but then again, im basing my judgements off how fast Burgess used to be. He was very fast, could hit top gear fairly quickly and maintain it over long distance. I'd say he was the closest weve had to Offiah in that he was not afraid to take defenders on the outside with his speed. Thats all gone.

FWIW, i think Frenchs main speed is off the mark and his ability to get into top gear almost instantly i dont think he would be that fast over distance but i may be wrong.

Like it or not Makinson is the best winger in the comp. He is such a good all rounder that it does not matter if he is not lightning fast. He can do pretty much everything a winger needs to do and does it to a very high standard whilst excelling at some things.

Manfredi could of been up there if not better than Makinson if not for injuries. Maybe he can still reach his potential if he can stay fit.

That is where it is at it's most devastating. John Ferguson wasn't particularly fast, but he was at his top speed in one step....he could also "side step on a tanner" to quote ray French IIRC.

From way back in the 1940's, I believe that Ces Mountford was also very 'quick off the mark' - The Blackball bullet !

Completely agree with this and your post immediately before it too. If Manfredi stays fit and injury free he could be up there. And if he hadn’t have done to RU Charnley would be streets ahead of any winger in the league.

Shame really. Charnley and Burgess seem like deliberate wastes of talent whereas Manfredi has been unbelievably unlucky.

A fit Manfredi is the best winger in SL for me. But he hasn't been fit, Johnstone was out for the season so Makinson was the stand out winger. He hardly had any real competition. Makinson stands out because of his ability and agility at bringing the ball out. This is where a fit Manfredi is better though in my opinion. You expect any winger to score tries. Even the showboating ones. Johnstone is superb at full length try's and is also very powerful near the line. Bringing the ball out is where his game needs to go to the next level but make no mistake Johnstone is an exceptional winger and could be world class. A lot depends on how he comes back from his injury.