Under Wane there was no such thing as an offload, a chip over the top and it was rugby by numbers. It was like Soviet style dull grey rugby.

To be honest I've heard from someone close to the squad how much the players like his ideas and they think he can take us to the next level. Now obviously that hasn't materialised yet, but you cant expect miracles with the injuries we have had this season. Saints have used 23 players all season, how many have we? Id guess closer to 40. How can we expect any continuity changing tons of changes each week.

That being said, I dont think a full strength this side would be top 4 so I am willing to give him time to get it right. I would definitely give him the whole of this season and next but maybe Lenagan will opt for change. Who knows.

I think it's closer to thirty but got told today that there maybe two or three more on Monday.

With out debating any of your points. I ask you one question, will you be renewing your ticket after the change of coach now boting waney has gone???

Are your friends happier now??????

To be honest, the players need some personal pride in there performance. Plenty players not doing it, not kids either%

Strange, I saw plenty of them.

Maybe someone needs to do a root cause analysis of this.

Are we unlucky with injuries, are our training methods causing injuries, or are we signing and re-signing crocks?

How would you prove what is correct? Manfredi has now had 4 x ACL's, so that would lean towards being injury prone, but what if he moves to someone else and stays injury free. Would that make it bad luck or our training?

Its impossible to know and I am glad we stuck by him. I think we will again if Im honest, hes a top player and Adrian Lam did his ACL 3 times and he turned out ok.

Presumably they didn't turn up yesterday, so they're each £25 happier than me.

Adrian Lam may not be the right person for us at this moment in time but I really feel sorry for him. His year long work experience has become a nightmare. We were always going to struggle this season because of our loss of some of the most talented players in the game. We have others who have been talking about retirement for years but are still going round. Add to that the yearly injury crisis and a fair number of journeyman squad members who are being over used. This time we cannot go out and buy in a Fielding to make things better.
Sadly our whole squad needs a shake up. We are getting bullied in the middle. Yesterday we won few collisions and looked pedestrian. I was once fond of the theory that we were running with small forwards because the number of interchanges was going down but for years now we have been lightweight. In previous years we covered that with tenacity and some creativity but we now have neither. It says a lot that Isa is probably the first name on our team sheet. Sadly we cannot even encourage some of the players to take up more lucrative offers from other clubs because the ones that need to move on will not get a better offer.
At the moment when I think about which forwards I would like to keep long term I cannot produce a very long list. We are over reliant on youngsters who are generally doing fine but who really should not be permanently punch drunk.

I don't understand the criticisms of Wane with regard to playing boring poor rugby. Yes at times it wasn't the best, but at other times it was great to watch, a spectacle in attack and defence.
His systems was very machine like, but fundamentally created a team attack and team defence as everyone know what they were supposed to be doing and when. We had some bad games no doubt, but overall under Wane it was a highly successful period which saw us in lots of finals and winning silverware. That's just facts, not even opinion.

In opposition I see people championing how Lam has brought in new attacking flair and options, personally I just don't see what he's added at all. It's not just our defence which has gone to pot, but our attack also. Apart from a left edge which is dependent on the skillset of the players not really coaching, we look very off in attack as well.

Fact is, under Lam, we're joint bottom. People can defend him, say its an injury crisis etc or whatever, but we're bottom, that's a terrible fall from grace, I don't know how anyone can champion Lam or even want him to stay on, we're simply not there under him.

It's all hypothetical, but I can't imagine us being as bad if Wane was still in charge. Why? cos it never was. Wane always found a way to win, got the best out of 'so-so' players. I can only imagine how good he'd have been if he had someone like Moran as a chairman owner.

I suppose I’m a bit more patient and a bit more philosophical about things than most. I’ve seen enough this season to believe in Lam and his style of play. What nobody is taking into account is the fact that we haven’t been able to play the same 17 two weeks on a row. At a time when we’re trying to embed new systems that’s a very clear hindrance but by no means an excuse.
Some of our players are simply not good enough, we all agree on that. I still believe the problem we have is one of recruitment over a sustained period but I’m not sure how we could have done things differently.
Tomkins coming back on marquee status was absolutely the right call. If at that time he’d been allowed to go anywhere else, the club would have been heavily criticised by our fans. Same with Budgie although not marquee.
If Williams has been allowed to go to Warrington as was rumoured, there would have been outrage from our fans so giving him marquee status was the right thing to do at that time.
We need a full overhaul of our squad and some quality additions. With Lam at the top and with players he trusts to deliver his style, I’m confident he’s the man for the job.
Let’s not forget, Saints dismantled Warrington last week and they’re far better than us. I’m not sure people on here are giving Saints enough credit if I’m honest, they were excellent yesterday.

Genuine question; what have you seen in Lam's style of play?

We’re only 11 games in and whilst we don’t always get it right, we’re trying to play much more rugby. It’s higher risk rugby that I’m seeing.
I’ve seen forwards try to offload. I’ve seen both halves playing on both sides of the pitch. I’ve seen us go from one flank to other in 3 passes. I’ve seen forwards trying to make metes after collision. I’ve seen far less predictable plays such as as winger, winger, centre, 2nd row drop off, kick which was our standard play under Wane.
As I’ve said, we don’t always get it right but we’re trying. We’ve got players out of position week in week out and with the right players brought in, players Lam trusts, we could really see a huge improvement.

This post is spot on.

Having said that I hope we can turn it around whether that's under Lam or not.

Rugby by numbers as in 6 trophies since his appointment, several more final appearances and an excellent win percentage?

I can think of many games when Wigan played excellent rugby under Wane too.

But hey we score tries direct from scrums now so it's reet!

That performance yesterday was one of the worst in attack and defence I’ve seen from a Wigan team in a long time. There just wasn’t any heart or desire to win from any player.

Constant indiscipline, unforgivable mistakes such as playing the ball to no one and a pass from the scrum straight back to a Saints attacker. I was watching in sheer embarassment at that pathetic showing.

Lam may want to get some tackle shields out and show the players what a tackle is. They fell off Johnny Lomax and Regan Grace with pathetic ease.

I don’t really know what Lam has brought to the team to be honest. The rugby isn’t really that good and we have somehow gone from fearless defenders to powder puff tacklers. He has been dealt a crappy hand but I do expect a lot better than this.

The low crowds and crap team is a direct result of Wane, similar to when Alex Ferguson left David Moyes with a team he’d won the league with the year before. Moyes was left with a substandard team as is Lam.

You’re clearly another Wane roundhead who would have him back tomorrow playing his Grey Soviet dull Lada rugby. The funny thing is, apart from the Saints 75-0 and the Leeds 70-0 the worst defeats we’d ever had were with Wane in charge. He never knew how to win a game but knew how not to lose one, by playing negative boring wrestling rugby which worked yes but it’s turned a lot of fans away. How many Wane games were 0-0 at half time? You remember the Widnes 7-0 game? How many tines were we billed under Wane?

I’ve seen enough of Lam to know that our attack is getting better but we need help or need to work on defence that’s for sure, it will be pretty hard for Lam to do anything considering our injury crisis as his methods weren’t going to happen over night. If we had a regular 6 and 7, a proper 9 and Hardaker playing together behind a pack of forwards who run hard and offload then we would be in the top 3.

Just looking, in 2011 in his first season we had an average of 16,000 plus, over 5 years it went down to the figure of last season as 11,000 plus. So 5000 fewer fans per game, how much revenue is that? And that’s a team that’s winning trophies, that’s fans who have voted with the their feet.

It'll be interesting to see what the average is this season, with this exciting, score from the scrum base rugby won't it? Because I guarantee it'll be less than last season.

The average will likely increase purely off the back of yesterday's crowd.

During Wanes tenure they took the fans for granted serving up dire rugby because it didn’t matter in the grand scheme of things, theyd finish somewhere thereabouts and win the trophy. But the fans saw through this, being taken for granted along with all the league games and this is a massive reason in why people voted with their feet.

Whether or not I have faith in Lam to carry us forward I think the standard of rugby on show has been miles better, albeit it was good under Wane in his first season, may have been down to Harris.

I recognise that Wane wasn't perfect and of course he had his faults. I'm not a fan of those close to record defeats either as I'm sure no fan at the club is.

Having said that my point was more aimed at the fact that I'm sick to death of reading about the alleged poor rugby from Wane's Wigan. Yes there were many games were we simply ground out results but there were also many entertaining matches when Wigan produced some top quality RL. I'm not sure if people don't recognise those performances or won't recognise those performances because they did happen under Wane. You speak of the 7-0 win but how about when we pumped Wire at Magic Weekend last year? Battered Saints on Good Friday in 2014? Runs up to and including the play-offs for several seasons? Pretty much the first 10-12 games of last season?

The crowds you point out are an alarming statistic and it's a stat none of us can be happy with and whilst I believe there are many social and economic factors impacting on our attendances there's no question people have voted with their feet. I find the voting with their feet notion almost staggering given the levels of success we've enjoyed. I'd say this is symptomatic of fans thinking they know better than the coaches and just generally never being satisfied - win, lose or draw. There's many of those same people who are critical of Lenagan but I can't say I blame him for cutting back a bit given literally thousands of the so-called loyal fan base have decided they know best and have hit the club in the pocket.

I hope Lam can turn this around and yes we'd all like results AND to be entertained but if it's a choice between the two given limitations in the squad I'd always choose results. It's a results based business. It'd be great to consistently have some razzle-dazzle on show but then again in any way shape or form I personally find winning usurps being entertained.

Lam hasn't been here that long in the grand scheme of things but alarmingly every player since his arrival seems to have gone backwards.

Let's hope Lam and the boys can it around and we can stop debating this and move forward collectively in a positive manner but at the current rate (you spoke about rugby by numbers) the numbers don't lie and they currently spell disaster for Lam.

2011 wasn't his first season, 2012 was, and that season was fantastic rugby but crowds went down.

In my opinion we need someone more experienced to take on the role of coaching us, someone who can get results but doesn’t play dreadful to watch rugby.