His organisation of the backs from fullback is also poor.

I bet 3 x grand final appearance in a row and 1 SL winning 2016 Plus a man of the match WCC Winner and england intnl George Williams at 21 wasn't on 6 x times the money danny Richardson is on now? I bet danny Maguire or Kevin sinfield or other international halves were on multiple times what George was on at 20/21?

Let's see if danny Richardson repeats what George has done by the time he's 22 and if so how much it costs Saints to keep him if they're under pressure from the NRL and other SL club.

George needs to keep improving and if he ends up 10/20% better than the 2016 early 17 George then we'll have one he'll of a player. He's and an up and down last 12 months but he been nowhere near as bad as some make out.
Nearly all players have some blips in their careers. Thank God most coaches and clubs don't make as hasty decisions as some fans.

I bet Williams wishes he had Ben Barba to ride on the back off as well. I like Richardson don’t get me wrong but it’s earky days yet and I’ll judge him when he faces up to some adversity and has to ride it out.

This!

What if Saints hadn't stood by Jonny Lomax 3/4 years ago when he was struggling in a struggling team and he was recovering from career threatening injuries? Now he's a fully fledged international player and playing the best rugby of his career at 27/28.

What about if Saints hadn't stood by Tommy Makinson when they were having a poor trot?

How much have Saints improved Percivals contract? Why have they done that when they have no idea if he will improve in next 2/3 years - How much more will Percival be on than say Jack Walker at Leeds or Tom Davies?

I like Richardson and he looks a real good player - He's nearly 22 and played 25ish games - George had nearly 100 with 3 Grand Finals (1 win), a World club challenge win and been selected for England at 20.
The whole club had a difficult time mid/back end of last year and obviously a difficult 3/4 weeks recently and no way was George the sole reason for this or the worst offender especially in 2017.

Seems to me the ones criticising him can never leave the "Marquee" tag out of any conversation about him.
To me that says that some people want to see an immediate return on that status whilst others may see it as reward for past performances when he VASTLY OVER PERFORMED based on the wages he would have been on at that point, an investment for the future, or simply what it took to keep at that point IMO the best British Half back in the game that would have cost easily as much to replace from either here or abroad with absolutely no guarantees on their performances either.

I, like many, have been critical of Williams at times this season - at times he has played poorly - that is something that has been obvious to all but I have never put that down to money/marquee at all. I do not doubt for a second that he is a talented player but at times he has looked lost - I put a lot of that down to the players alongside him, I think (and have stated before) that most of Williams best performances have been alongside Matty Smith who for all his faults at least did all the organising and allowed Williams a much more free role and as a combination it did work well.

Sadly I do not think that the Williams/Powell combination works as well as we would like - which is a shame as I wanted Powell to get a chance at 7 due to how he performed there a few years ago leading up to the WCC where he got injured just before the game - then he looked a potentially good 7, but for whatever reason it has not worked out.

The comparisons to Richardson at Saints are a bit off - it is his first season and often players when they first break into a team look good but it is how they perform over more than one season that really tells - plus Saints are flying at present so it is easier to play in a team like that (and do not underestimate how much Roby does for them - leading the team and directing things). Richardson is looking a good player but it is early days yet (and I think it is absolutely the right call not to pick him for England at this stage).

Williams is a good player - there are areas he needs to improve to be a great player. He has had a bad spell (and is far from the only one since Wane's announced departure) - but the ability is still there.

1) Williams never played 'alongside Matty Smith. They both played on different opposite sides of the pitch.
2) Willams doesn't have a free role, he's the left pivot, he has limited room to play off the cuff in the structure.
3) Williams and Smith were never a combination. They played in the same position on either side of the pitch.
4) Powell and Williams don't play in combination.
5) Why was it right not to call up Richardson? He's the form half in SL.

Ah, more stats. Thanks, really. It doesn't alter the fact that Tomkins has stated he won't play in the halves if he has the choice, which was the only point
I was making. Similarly in the Williams debate, the only point I was making is that he wasn't worth his salary this season whereupon you did your usual and responded with stats. The one stat missing, of course was "value for money". The other thing missing was your answer to my question.

How much does Williams earn?

Those stats show that he is the top running halfback in the game. Do you want to go back to a Matty Smith style halfback?


As for Richardson he is a great kicker of the ball but as a running half no.

It depends on what you expect from your halfback.

Grow up. You know at least what the minimum value of a marquee player is. Just answer yes or no.

The minimum salary cap value for a marquee club trained player is 75K. I don't know how much above that Williams is on.
Would you have been happy for him to go to Wire and us signed Roberts payed a minimum of 150K?

So half-backs even when split like at Wigan never combine or pass to each other or play off each other? They never communicate or ever operate off each other? really? I find it hard to believe that even in a structured game plan they always are at opposite sides of the pitch. It may not be a combination like it used to be many years ago but they still have to link with each other and there still has to be leadership from the halves.

Richardson is the form half so far this season (in a very good team) but how many really top pressure games (play-offs, semi-finals, fianls etc) has he played in - he is still learning and for me rather than put him under pressure at international level I think it is better for him to continue to develop at club level and if he can show that he can play under pressure in big games then call him up by all means. If the international was in this country then maybe he could be in the squad for "the experience" as it is often called but flying all the way to the US not to play would be pointless - I think this international is a bit too soon for him, looking forward he may well become an international player but why rush him at this stage when he hasn't played that many SL games yet.

No, halves don't play together at all. It's the same as thinking centres play in the centre of the pitch cos they're called centres. One controls the left, one controls the right. the 13 is the link. FB has freedom to link either side. halfback combinations aren't there.

So you don't want Richardson to gain have experience because he has no experience? Catch 22 for the lad.

Sadly it's not as black and white as that as you can still have a pairing i.e one can control the majority of the tactical kicking. That makes them a partnership in the sense your pairing up different skill sets.

Not rocket science to think that if they brought more of an organising 7 in, then it would have an impact on Williams performances.

No, but he'd probably go for a Deacon style type halfback.

It's not far as that black and white, yes one can take the primary in the kicking responsibly on the 5th, but that's really about it. One controls the left, one controls the right.

I would put myself as a Williams fan but his inconsistent performances for the best part of a season and a half are disappointing to say the least. Maybe I expected too much of him, maybe he has "peaked" or hopefully its just a temporary blip but a temporary blip of season and a half is stretching it a bit.

His decision making at times is pretty woeful but on many occasions I attribute that to lack of options which I think is a consequence of our overly structured approach and predetermined tactics which rarely if ever change.
The structure is only going to change with a new coach but Williams should be improving other aspects of his game as a natural progression of a comparatively highly paid half back. His kicking game is awful and hasn't progressed one iota in seasons. For me this is where a good coaching outfit and a player determined to improve his game should be putting lots of effort in i.e. areas of his that is particularly weak not wrestling or improving his "D".
It isn't surprising that some fans get frustrated with Williams as he is one our better paid players and quite rightly expectations of his performance to improve and dare I say it justify his pay will grow. In industry if a guy gets promoted with a hefty pay increase and he doesn't hack it then management will look to replace him with a better proposition as soon as they can. I don't see why RL shouldn't operate in the same manner.

I think with a new coach with new ideas Williams will kick on again. He has good work ethic on the park, decent pace and isn't frightened of the physical stuff. A break for a few weeks may not be a bad thing for him at the moment.

Genuine question, who are our halves/back coaches?

Williams is a very off the cuff player being asked to play in a very structured attack. At somewhere like Leeds or Wire where they create more space he would thrive.

Perhaps as a FB? just thinking about what position offers most attacking freedom in the modern game.

No catch 22 at all - he has what ..half a season or so of regular first team games so far, there will be tougher tests for him soon - CC semi-final and maybe final , play off games and even possibly a grand final - all higher pressure games those will be good experience and if he shows up well there then he might be in the frame for international call up. Or should he be dropped straight into a test against a good team like NZ to sink or swim, and should it be the case that every time any player shows good form in SL they are immediately pushed into the test team? I think he is showing up very well at the moment (in a dominant team) but I would like to see how he goes in higher level SL games before considering him to be ready for international call up. Many young players have burst onto the scene and started well only to fade away - I doubt that will happen here but too much pressure too soon might not help. That is my opinion and I would say the same for any player in a similar position.

Clause 5.14 b) of the 2018 salary cap rules states "A Marquee Player is a Player whose salary cap value would be (but for the provision of this clause 5.14) £175,000 or more." Which means Williams is on at least £175K. He can't be on any less because if the club paid him (say) £125K his salary cap value would be £125K and too low to qualify for marquee status.

Roberts at £150K or Williams at £175K? (plus probably...)




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Take a look at some of the younger players in the NRL, have a look at how they pick on form, allow them the opportunity to gain experience playing for their national team or origin outfit.
I don't know how anyone can deny someone experience then argue they don't have enough experience to play. In Richardson you have a player who's the stand out half, toured Australia with Saints Academy in 2013, was part of their unbeaten academy side.

How would we deal with players who are outstanding who play for weaker sides? who gain very little big game experience? If he's good enough he should go. The experience would do him well, integrate him into a national side which would benefit from more depth in the halves.

Why are you squirming so much? Who mentioned Roberts? Just answer the question! Do you think he is giving value for money? As a guide to help you, let's assume Wire would have offered him £150k so we have at least matched that.

Yes, he's the best British halfback in the game. If he'd gone to Wire who would you replace him with and how much would it have cost?