Manfredi was the best English winger before his injury, hence why he made it into the Dream Team based on half a season. Sure he might not have cut it for England (because there's no way he'd have been overlooked for selection on that form) but he was still incredible in Super League, and better than Makinson. And I don't agree about Makinson being head and shoulders above Davies either. Makinson is dependable, hard working, safe defensively and an outstanding finisher. Davies is dependable, works even harder, maybe not quite as safe defensively (Makinson is exceptional) but still a strong defender, and is a good finisher (not quite Makinson's standard). Makinson isn't 'head and shoulders' above him at all. He's better, just not by a huge amount.
And Marshall, well he's effectively our 4th choice winger and has received just as much praise as Grace and arguably had a bigger impact for us than Grace has for Saints. Not saying Marshall is great, but you really think Grace is that much better? They're very similar.

Ask any Saints fan about Makinson v Davies. I think Davies has potential to be a top SL winger and better than Makinson. But currently his overall game isn't there. I'd argue it's only a matter of time (if Davies is developed correctly) he'll surpass Makinson. I think on here at times people are deluded due to who they support, hence why a saints fan would laugh at such a suggestion.

I'm very pleased with Davies. Especially considering he's on a winger with either a SR makeshift centre or someone he's barely played with. To add this his pivot is Powell, who does nothing to put Davies in space or create within the structure.
Manfredi was excellent. As I've previously stated on he I thought he was the best winger we had at the club, including Burgess and at the time, Charnley. But he wasn't quite at the level of Hall who's proven not just at club level but on the international stage time and time again. In time could Manfredi have been as good? Probably yes. Sadly it could all be a coulda woulda shoulda with Dom.

I think Grace is better than Marshall. I wish I could watch the game with some of you pointing out and highlighting positional play (in defence) etc with Marshall. Not to mention how he's always good for an unforced error etc.
His speed and acceleration is a joy to watch, but it doesn't overshadow the issues.

You say ask any Saints fan about Makinson v Davies but then say they'd be deluded. What I said in the original post was that Davies wasn't far off Makinson. Having seen Davies this year and last I don't see any reason to suggest he's far from being a top winger (which Makinson is). It's obviously down to opinion, but no way do I buy into that view. The problem Davies has is that he rarely gets to showcase the attacking side of his game because, as you mentioned, there's little space created for Davies. Still, when he's been given opportunities he's generally taken them.

With Manfredi I should have said he was the best English winger 'in Super League' at the time of his injury. That may have been partly to do with Hall not having the same form for Leeds as he shows pretty much every time, but that's not to take away from Manfredi's form. Given the post I replied to was about us not producing quality players compared to Saints I don't think there was anything wrong in my assessment of Manfredi except for missing off that qualifying statement.

As for Marshall, I don't think his positional play is that bad compared to other young wingers who could be considered to be at the same level. And that includes Grace, who isn't immune to the odd positional lapse and error. They both have drawbacks. Marshall is definitely more error prone, but I'd also say that Marshall is a little bit better at creating opportunities for the players around him. I'd also hazard a guess that, having worked hard to improve his defence, Marshall is a little bit better at making his tackles stick compared to Grace, who can be a bit weak in that department.

I actually agree with the meat of your post. Makinson is a better player, but I agree Davies has potential and younger. I read that you thought Manfredi was the best English winger, I disagree with that due to the points raised about Hall, but Manfredi wasn't a million miles away.
I do disagree re-Marshall. For his age, compare his to Tom Johnson, both 22. Johnson is considerably better in all aspects of his game. Or Charnley or Burgess when they were the same age.
Marshall is better at creating chances? In all honesty as a winger, I don't know what you're referring to. Making tackles stick? Again I don't see that at all.

Care to answer or shall I, again, take it you can't?

To use the phrase "ask any Saints fan" is so far removed from any rational argument that I shouldn't even need to mention it. I will though..



As it happens I have no problem with your views. It's the hyperbole you use to express them. So Bateman is not 'as good as' or 'better' than O'Loughlin, the best player we have had at the club in a decade, but he is "far better". Makinson isn't 'more rounded' or 'more experienced' or even 'better', he is 'head and shoulders' better. You don't have to exaggerate a point to make it you know?

For what it's worth my opinion is Makinson, at this point, is slightly the better winger but not by much. Age for age there's no comparison! Davies has, only this season, set a Superleague record for number of metres in a match. That's not just Makinson he's beaten.. or any other winger for that matter.. That's every player who's ever played the game! He's in his first season as first choice winger...

The ask saints fans was to highlight that fans opinions are skewed by the team they support. On a saints board the argument would be a null point, but not on here.
You don't like hyperbole? That's no concern of mine, I do think currently Makinson is head and shoulders above Davies currently, a better more experienced player.
First choice winger? Yes due to injury to others.
BUT... like our discussion Lockers/Bateman, as you'll see in previous comments I am a Davies fan. Other comments explain my positive opinions on him.

Saints fan weighing in so take it as you will



Wigan seem to be at using the same recruitment manual as Saints have in recent times up until the last season; projects mixed in with kids (and complete flops). Since Holbrook Saints have started to complement this strategy with a genuine NRL quality player (first Barba, the Naiqama). It gave our recruitment a complete different spin and has positivity flowing through the club, which feeds into and spurs on the kids - hence we’re on a bit of an upward spiral at the moment. Richardson’s running and stepping style is mimicking Barbas more and more with every passing game!

Warrington on the other hand are all about the here and now and forget the bringing players through and projects type signings



Oh, and I’ll sit on the fence about the wingers thing; Wigan and Saints use their wingers in incredibly different ways which makes comparisons very difficult. That being said, Makinsons defence is first class, a great finisher, solid under the high ball and his weakest area (returning the ball) has improved dramatically in recent years. There’s very few in SL I would trade him for.

Be interesting to see how Saints maintain they're good form if Barba leaves at the end of the season. Gus Gould naming the Sharks as a possible home for Ben in 2019.
I genuinely mean this, it will be a shame to see Barba leave. He's a joy to watch and is adding some real entertainment to SL, even if that means helping out the Saints!

Johstone is a fair call, he's quality. He did get dropped earlier in the season supposedly for not playing well enough but I haven't seen enough of him this year to know why Chris Chester made that call.

In terms of creating chances, I mean when Marshall makes a break it doesn't end with him, as it does for quite a few highly rated wingers. In my opinion when Marshall makes a clean break he's better than most of his rivals at creating a try scoring opportunity out of it, even if he doesn't finish the move himself. His ability to kick the ball accurately at pace, pick out accurate passes to supporting players and produce offloads in the tackle is something that shouldn't be overlooked. I know there's more of a focus these days on being flawless defensively and making good carries (and that's what makes Davies so impressive) but Marshall's attacking game is definitely worthy of high praise.

With regards to tackles we can agree to disagree. I happen to think it's an aspect of his game that he's greatly improved this year. I don't think Marshall has the same potential as Grace though, and I think Marshall will never properly become number 1 winger at a top Super League club simply because he's always compensating for his lack of height. No matter how well he plays there is always a greater chance that he'll be beaten in the air or overpowered by a bigger winger. I do like that Marshall doesn't let his head drop, and that after a bad mistake against Wire he responded with some good takes under pressure. I just don't think the effort will be enough to reach the level of consistency required.

Well put. I respect your opinion on this. I don't fully see how you can justify the 'breaks don't end with him' 'kick the ball accurately at pace' etc but I will say this, he's one of few players in attack who gets me off my seat when he's in open space, has the pace and ability to make something happen, and often find the try line, his attack has never been an issue with me.

In terms of age, in puts it into comparison when you look at other players around the same age as Marshall. Davies and Grace are younger, Burgess is only a year older. Whereas the likes of Tom Johnstone, Greg Minikin, Ash Hanley are all the same age, all are more complete outside backs.

I agree re the comments of how Marshall will never be a top 1st choice winger. Which is a crying shame. I'd love a winger from wigan to be the best around.

17stone 6lb according the club website.

TT is 17 stone 13lb, as is Sammy Kibula.

Hardly small.

Joel is next biggest at 16 stone 9lb, Sutton, Bretherton and Navarette are at 16 stone 3lb and Benny Flower, Caine Barnes and Jack Wells at 16 stone.

The worst thing about that was the rest of the team just standing and watching instead of giving Marshall some help.

First choice winger due to injuries to others reinforces my point which was the fact that someone at the very start of his career has already accomplished something extraordinary. Not really sure how you feel that contradicts it but whatever.

There's nothing skewed about asking for the markers by which you make the claim that Makinson is 'head and shoulders' above Davies. Last time I checked they didn't skew statistics in order to support one club or another. Yet again you fail to provide them. We're definitely starting to get a pattern here.

At least you recognize it as hyperbole. That's progress I guess. Maybe your next step it to recognize using it doesn't make it true.

Finally : "Head and shoulders" my ! Unless you care to prove otherwise of course...

He is similar to Budgie in that way. Both have time on the ball to take options while running at pace, nether are "head down run until tackled" types of player. It's a pleasure to watch.



The best taker of a high ball I have ever seen is Steve Hampson and he was a comparative midget. Players just gave up trying to kick to him. It's not impossible for smaller players to develop a technique to jump in a way to offset a height disadvantage.

I could look through stats and figures and achievements re Davies and Makinson, but the last time I played your game highlighting facts/figures re Lockers and Bateman you emailed me privately asking me to stop as it was becoming a two man thread after justifying all my points. (life is far too short to get back into that one!) I think you'll find that's more of a pattern than me failing to support my points.
Last time I also pointed out that stats only provided information of very definable measures, i.e meters made etc, it's so baffling that someone would hang their hat on stats when there's far more complexities to a game, players performance, I'm assuming you do actually watch games and not just read the stats after the fact? If you really want this discussion, please feel free to mention it on the Saints board, I'm sure one or two of their fans would be happy to keep you entertained .

I actually regret going into the ins and outs of the Bateman/Lockers debate. I pointed out how stats only provided a short sighted overview, yet I still played your game justifying and supporting all my points. But furthermore because it seemed I was against Lockers, which couldn't be further from the truth; for me, he's the best player we have.

PS Hyberbole? "someone at the very start of his career has already accomplished something extraordinary" -Phuzzy on Tom Davies, June 2018.

I was gobsmacked with G Williams, he's better than that. He's not been a shadow of himself this season has he?

I agree. Felt sorry the lad. Can never question his effort or desire.

Is pretty good for it though FMC.
He looks to make the heavy yards and have sweet distribution too. It's makes me smile watching his dummy half passing he makes on occasions.

The point about teammates not helping Marshall out is a fair one; thinking back, it seemed to go on for ages. It was he who chased back in a desperate effort the last time we were humiliated by an after-the-hooter try, as I recall.

Size alone is not enough. My own clubs pack (Wakefield) is frankly massive yet there is no evidence so far this seaon that they could dominate anybody.

For whatever reason the attitude is all wrong at the moment with the backs shouldering far to much of the work.

We have pace in abundance but we simply can’t use it because the pack isn’t winning the battle up front.

Ditto mobility, potentially we have that in spades but that’s not happening either.

Packs win games and big and mobile as our pack is on paper on grass it’s totally lacklustre.

If you play it hard down the middle against us you could easily win because we are soft in sad to say.

Knowing our luck we will buy some huge props in the season they change the substitution rule. What the sports needs is more Grahams and Gansons, tough players who play consistently well season after season and are happy to stay at a club for a long period, but they are a rare breed.

If you mean 'right now' as in 2018 fair enough, but Wire have been trying for ten years (with mixed success) to bring players through the ranks. Penny and Riley on the wings, Johnstone at full back, O'Brien and Patton in the halves, lots of forwards. Some of these lads played dozens of first team games but ultimately proved not good enough (or still trying to prove it) for a team with ambition to be right at the top. What we do have currently are Cooper, Currie and probably Livett who have made it through.

It well could be our playing style over the size or mobility of our props. As previously discussed we seem to have some very set tactics at Wigan. Wingers used often on tackles 1 and 2 on exit sets, usually to use speed to evade 'A' defenders and props who are instructed to 'find their front' after contact and have a quick play the ball to catch the defensive line off-guard.

I feel sorry for some of our props under our coaching system, they are made to look like they have no leg drive or fight after first contact.

Could be a style of play issue.

No size or intimidation factor


I think that you will find quite a few barmaids now feel intimidated whenever the Tomkins boys enter the pubs. Add

You let you're best asset go....Kear.
Hudds Cats have, KR know where they're at and now Widnes are fixing it....Wakefield haven't.
You'll be hoping Widnes can't and Salford dont, because Wakefield have one or two interesting backs for 2019.