Agree with above. I thought you would have tried to do a little bit more with the ball. We couldn't put two passes together! Thought your forwards did well to match up with ours and that won you the game.

Ultimately a charge down difference between the two sides

I wouldnt review the saints game in training I would repeat the Cas video.

Re-watch the game if you can. Bentham was typically (not always but on most occasions) standing 12 metres back from where the play the balls were occurring (many refs do this - probably to get a better view of the defensive line - a ref doesn't have to stand 10m back from the play the ball so is no indication of where the players need to stand- the lines on the pitch give an indication of that). Yes players were in front of him but were not usually more than two metres in front of him (so were still onside). A defensive player doesn't need to be in line with the ref to be onside. They just need to be 10m from the play the ball. Similarly it doesn't matter if they were stood in an offside position but don't attempt to impact with the attacking team or the ball before retreating to be 10m away first. Many people were baying "offside" repeatedly when there was no infringement. There were some offside players not spotted but not nearly so many as a proportion of the crowd thought there were.

Great game and well refereed but lets be fair, Saints had something like 7 players missing.

I know someone is now going to quote me their Grand Final team and say that was not much different that the team they had out yesterday.

I understand what your saying but watch the NRL the games are fair more entertainig because the aussies practice a good 10m and they only move in to tackle when the dummy half picks ups the ball, in this country its 7m and the tacklers move in when the player presents the ball to the ground. Other than that the play where saints were defending their line, you know the rule - two feet behind the line - non existent, the tackler was 5 m offisite before the dummy half picked up the ball. Also the instance were LMS wasnt stood square and tackled the dummy half before he picked the ball up - went unpunished and 30 seconds later Wigan did the same thing and got penalised. Head high shots went upunished, LMS went in with his elbow thats a 3 match ban. Dont defend Bentham he is undefendable

Great game and well refereed but lets be fair, Saints had something like 7 injuries, Wilkin, Burns, Walsh, Vea, the young centre etc.

I now expect someone to quote me their grand final team and say that was more or less the same side that played yesterday

I think a lot of this goes back to our halves.

Neither Smith or Williams are naturally attacking players. Opposition teams know that nine times out of ten they will pass the ball along the line and then on the rare occasion they do try a jink it's not going to cause much trouble.

The lack of real attacking options at half back is a real issue for me.

And the ability to be able to do a "jink" adds the option to bluff and double bluff that move, creating a level of doubt in the oppositions mind of what that player is going to do. The predictability of the 9/10 passing scenario is helping no one youve got to leave the opposition guessing

I disagree with that. Okay, it fits for Smith, he doesn't take the line on as much as many halves, but Williams' issue is that he's too used to taking the line on and his passing and timing needs improvement. He's caught in possession too many times at the moment. His running game has always been his strength.
It's difficult for any young half making the step up to Super League though and it's a problem that a lot of young players have. In Williams' case, he's been playing for a dominant U19's side and he's been playing in a way that's most effective. At that level he can afford to run with the ball more often because he can break through defences easier or he could turn and offload and create an opportunity. It's difficult for players to change their habits.
It's a problem a lot of young English halves have. Academy and junior rugby does not equip them with the skills that are necessary to become top halves. Players who can kick well and those who can produce excellent individual attacking rugby flourish but the playmaking instincts possessed by a huge number of halves from overseas are lacking from our home-grown players.
It will take the majority of young halves a while to adapt to Super League and to improve their playmaking ability. The exceptions are the players who are just naturals. The question is whether Wigan and other Super League clubs are willing to have the patience to stick with young players through the difficult early stages and so that we can actually produce halves of the right quality.

I agree they had more men missing than we did, but for Wigan to go into a Good Friday derby without their captain and main playmaker, plus their most dangerous three-quarter and one of their strongest forwards went some way to cancelling that advantage out.

But I hear this argument endlessly - "if we hadn't being missing so-and-so, we'd have won" - and it is always trite. Teams are almost never able to field their perfect first 13, certainly not for sustained periods. Injuries affect everyone to varying degrees. If there's any credit to be had on this subject, it should go to clubs who have put together big enough and strong enough squads to cope with these kinds of crises.

This... Wigan beat Saints... End of... The rest is subjective.

That's a very good post. In an ideal world Wigan would have Williams and Hampshire in the halves, but that won't happen for two to three years. They have to learn their trade and we need to be patient with them. Both were outstanding at junior level but they were up against players of similar age AND experience. If they are guided correctly they could be an outstanding pair of players for the club whichever positions they are utilized in.

Is williams a out and out 6 ? Doesn't look like a ball player to me. He looks dangerous when he runs tho. Has that small stocky build and looks powerful.

I take the point about refs being 12 m back, but agree that goal line defence is nearly always offside in SL and refs just don't clamp down on it.

And if we're making comparisons with the NRL, the biggie for me is the faster ptb. If it was policed here as it is there, the game would be a much better spectacle

Just briefly on Williams: he seems to me to be slowly improving week on week. Last week he produced a moment of quality in a poor game with that kick, and yesterday there was *that* kick and *that* incredible tackle.

I'm not trying to knock the kid I promise.

I see him 2/3 years down the line as being a dominant 7. It was possibly a little unfair on my part to write off his attacking skills. He has turned out a few good moment like his hand in our last try yesterday and that killer offload against Widnes. He's getting close to Smiths level (current England 7) and he's still just a pup.

BUT i know you touched on the notion of natural attacking instincts and I just don't feel he's overly blessed with enough to be a long term 6. He's certainly got enough to be a very good 7 who can do what Smith does and add a little more on top.

Hampshire on the other hand has that 'Jink' in his locker. I'll hold my hands up and say I don't know what his distribution is like but I know he's a threat when he's on the ball. If he was at 6 it would put another option in out attack that would hold defenses and create more space for others.

In a very tight game he produced a magical kick that looked effortless, some are questioning his abilities in attack but he didnt half make that kick look easy- actually on all the ocassions he's used it.

I think Wigan and most teams are trying to go down the route of having split halves where 6 and 7 are largely irrelevant. Obviously some players will always be stronger in certain areas but having left and right side halves rather than first and second receivers seems to be the aim. The partnership of Williams on the left and Hampshire on the right worked so well for the U19's, although that doesn't mean it'll work at Super League level.

Hampshire has excellent distribution. His passing is very good and he reads the game well. I think he's being kept away from the halves because he's a little bit lacking physically compared to Williams and Powell. Given how halves are expected to go right to the line before passing it could be sensible to protect him a little.

As I said, Williams' playmaking ability needs improvement, like most young halves, but it can be hard to tell how players will develop and to what extent. Hampshire is a more natural halfback and has a lot of the required skills already. I do think that Williams has the potential to be a real quality halfback though and the only way he'll develop into that is by being given the opportunity and a little patience.

Even if it doesn't work out, I think Williams is a natural rugby player and would offer excellent utility value. If he doesn't become a regular halfback I reckon he could easily play hooker, loose forward and even centre or fullback as long as he retains his pace. His defence is incredible for his age and size, he's quick, has good footwork, is deceptively strong and has very good handling skills including a good ability to offload. He's one of those players who I think will find his place in the team somewhere.

Also worth mentioning that Jamie Doran got MOM for Workington yesterday and had a storming game by all accounts. He took me by surprise with how well he played last year but if he keeps playing well he could get his chance in the first team.

I want to see him kicking more when we are in the opposition 10-20m, some of Smith's efforts yesterday were awful.

Jamie Doran is a decent shout for a game or two. He looks a clever player and a halfback who can pick a pass.

Worth a go in a cup tie if we get lower opposition.

Doran has played a bit for the first team, hasn't he?

Got a couple of games last year including Saints at home.

Well here's a first DaveO I actually agree with you.
A tense game but very little if any quality in attack from both teams.
Still a win on a Good Friday will do for me irrespective of the quality of the performance.
Looking forward to the next encounter when hopefully both teams will be near to full strength and conditions more suitable for an expansive game from us.

We are not going to win many games by scoring just 12 points. The frustrating thing is we seem to get into the oppositions 20m area a lot but then have no clue what to do. Did we even try at any point in the game the same move Saints put on for LMS to score when they did?

We don't try anything different, we haven't done for 2 years - you should've realised that by now!

We are short of guile and craft. In other words, a key 'master' at 6 or 7. Edwards and Gregory were masters at opening up defences. As were Mountford and Bradshaw before them.

Mind, we are short of class all across the park. As are all the rest of Superleague thankfully.

Having said that, the lads played well against Saints. Bags of effort.

Salford could be a tricky game. I recall when they 'took our scalp' when we had won tons of trophies.