And they will all leave. There is no future in this approach.

We have always brought plenty of players through the junior ranks anyway. What was great to see was players like that complimented with star players as and when they became available.

There is nothing sensible in sport about not signing an Offiah if you can in order to keep playing a locally produced player if the latter is not as good.

Our self imposed financial limit means we can't sign the Offiah's any more. You really [idon't[/i want to watch talent like that in the game?

In any case no team has ever been able to staff itself with mega stars all bought in and Wigan didn't. Players like Hampson, Edwards, Clarke and Betts came through the ranks.

The bigger issue is when you end up with a team of overseas players who aren't that good keeping out local players and this did happen at other clubs.

I suppose what I am trying to say is there is always room for class players in any side whereas panic buying mediocre Aussies to try and avoid relegation is a much bigger issue and it one the game [ihas[/i faced in the recent past. I think we will see it again particularly if the overseas quota is relaxed as I believe is the plan.

I think the logic behind doing that is a recognition there just aren't enough players up to the required standard to operate what is in effect a 24 team pro competition. We knew that already and part of the solution appears to be to allow more mediocre overseas players in (because we won't be signing top class players).

When you add into the mix the fact another proposal is to limit the number of academies (I think it is to 10) we are even stifling our own production line as a sport.

In the short term Wigan will be fine but when Hampshire follows Sam and there isn't a player as good coming through, then what?

Hope he fails and comes back with his tail between his legs - while were on it what has Joel Tomkins actually done in Union? Heard literally nothing of him since.

This x 2. I hope some of the NRL big boys hurt him as much as possible and he rots in the reserves so when he does go to Union he has little impact and puts other RL players off from making the move, if Burgess can't make it what chance have the rest they will ask.

Agreed.

I have never understood those responding to the talent-drain worry by casually stating "Not a problem, we can always produce more".

It really is the emptiest of boasts.

I mean, how difficult can it be to understand that each new generation of talent will get cherry-picked unless we try to stop it? As Phibes said, this is no longer an occasional thing, it's becoming accepted as the inevitable next stage in a young RL star's career.

The Burgess saga really ought to have lit the blue touch-paper. Even the Aussies, who are famous for their bravado in these situations, have been shaken by that - as it's proved to them that the NRL is not, in itself, enough of a draw. But when I hear Brits saying it, I'm staggered.

At this rate, unless we do something, the UK is going to be left with a league full of journeymen, poor overseas buys, and exciting kids who, the moment they mature, will go somewhere else.

How anyone can be excited by that future bewilders me.

what a waste

When I saw Burgess play in the World Cup I thought that we could build a team around him that would be competitive with the Aussies. He's as good a player as anyone I have ever seen. With Burgess leading the side, better coaching and the other players benefitting from being in the NRL we could have had a chance to compete with the Aussies in a way that we haven't for decades (apart from a brief period in the early 90s). It was an exciting moment and all that has gone now. Losing Burgess is an absolutely massive blow to England and the international game.

How long before Sam Tomkins and others follow him to RU?

In the long term RL seems to have no future as an elite sport, certainly in this country and potentially now in Australia too. (At some point the ARU will get its house in order and then the raids on the NRL will really start.)

We had a chance with the advent of SL to boost the game to the point where it could have been more competitive with the NRL and RU. By improving clubs' financial health we could have made it far more of a gamble financially for players to leave British RL for RU or even the NRL and by forcing clubs to invest in player development we could have had a much more competitive England team and a better international scene to offer players to keep them in RL.

Repeated failures of vision and management have brought us to where we are now. I know there will be many reading this post who will not like me saying this, but the attitude of many RL fans that a level playing field is a good idea (especially if the level is Wakefield's rather than Wigan or Leeds') has also contributed to where we are now. These flat eathers have made it easier for the RL authorities to bring in crazy and counterproductive schemes (my "favourite" was the 20/20 rule - sheer madness, a bonkers rule that made the salary cap look sensible and well thought out).

Some people just seemed to want to restrict pay out of envy that the players should earn enormous salaries like 100k p.a. (peanuts in sporting terms, 2 or 3 days pay to Wayne Rooney). You know who you are.... hang your heads in shame...

So, I would say to all the people that have posted on this board over the years in support of the salary cap and the other failed structures that have wrecked the chances of RL to move forward in this country, I hope you are happy.

What did these people expect? Well, they've got what they wished for. I'm too sad now about the future of the game to be angry with these people any more, it's just too late now. Managed decline into a second rate future is the best we can hope for, but I suspect that's too optimistic. In the long term I think we are likely to see SL become more like the French domestic championship than what it is today. Happy days for the level playing field nutters

Wasn't aware of that. Unbelievable.

I think it's the best we can hope for. I think there's a real risk that the exciting kids won't bother coming into RL in the first place or will be snapped up as juniors by RU scouts.

Played in the Autumn internationals for England but was pretty quiet. Missing the Six Nations due to injury. Not sure he'll find it easy to get back in either as his replacement - Luther Burrell - has been playing well and scored I'm both matches so far.

The centres are going to be very congested over the next couple of years with ex-RL players, let alone thoroughbred RU players like Twelvetrees, Tuilagi and Burrell.

Players like Burgess and Tomkins were obviously offered 'fast track' England chances as an incentive to switch but there's only so many people you can offer that to. I'm not sure that will stop the current trend of defections though.

What the Burgess incident shows is that not even the NRL is a big enough draw to keep players in RL. I remember when Sam's exit from Wigan was first mooted some took comfort from the 'at least he's still in RL' argument but now it seems to be a countdown till the next star converts unless serious changes are made.

Dont panic people, the good Dr over @ Salford will have him back in RL in a jiffy!

I think the only saving factor is that Union is not as exciting to play as League. When I used to play Union in the Army, in some games, you hardly touched the ball!

Soooo then, in a sport where clubs already seem to be falling over themselves to go bankrupt..... How does removing the salary cap help retain our best talent?
I neither agree nor particularly disagree with it. But as a business manager myself, i fully appreciate that you simply cannot sustain direct cost increases without the necessary improved revenue streams required to fund it. Commercial suicide.
If even the NRL cant now compete with the filthy
Yawnion Dollar, then what chance has a far less cash-rich SL got?
I dont like it one bit - Especially losing quality RL developed talent to a far inferior sport.
But as with any business, the big 'uns will always trample over the little 'uns.
When RU was a part-time sport, we were one of the worst for poaching their top talent. For the time being the boot is very firmly on the other foot, and its our turn endure the headhunting.
Forget the cap, the RFL, Stevo etc etc... Commercially, where would all this extra cash magically appear from?
Not bland acceptance, just an acknowledgement of RL's current state of affairs.

Sorry, but the argument that we need the salary cap because things would be worse without it is false. The choice isn't between having the salary cap or having nothing.

We could have a system that encouraged and rewarded growth in income - then clubs would find ways of raising revenue. Money would not magically appear, it would be earned.

What we now have is a system that allows clubs to stagnate, offering no incentive for growth. In fact stagnation would be preferable to the situation we have now, which is one in which the SC has not been raised in line with inflation due to the financial issues at many clubs. RL players in England are at least 30% poorer in real terms on average than they were at the outset of the SC. This is an appalling record of financial failure. If it continues then the game will inevitably go back to being semi-pro.

Pretty much agree with that assessment.
Sustainable growth is what we all want for the game. Not the bang n bust 'Bradford' scenario.
The argument isnt really about the cap - Remove it tomorrow for me! Just so long as clubs live within their relative means, all good.
And to be fair i dont really see this mass exodus towards Yawnion being such a huge concern, cos it hasnt really happened. A few 'names' for sure, but not the doomsday scenario that has been predicted by some.
The NRL is still the real nightstalker in the house at the min!

What I would like to see in the SL with the new money coming in from SKY and being reduced to 12 teams is that EACH SL club gets £2 million and the salary cap raised to £2 million so that each club is on a level playing field from the onset. I know that the salary cap has been twiddled with to accommodate home grown players this is up to each club then to get their act together to provide more money for the players .Of course this being the RL this will not happen as the money will be diluted to championship 1 and 2 and amateur and grass roots .If it was not for the SL clubs there would not be any money so please RFL get this right IL was right the SL clubs should have a bigger say in the running of SL.

The thing is, who is going to want to watch a sport with average players not good enough for Superleague, over the hill Aussie and Kiwis and promising youngsters who inevitably will go to the NRL or Union for more cash?

With the standards dropped we lose sponsorship and money.

With the loss of sponsorship and money from the crowds dropping we can't pay the players what they deserve so back to point 1.

A financial backer may come in to Superleague ala Koukash, Branson, Moran and want to splash the cash and buy some top players but the salary cap stands in the way so back to point 1 and the financial backers stay away.

Its a vicious circle that needs to stop otherwise its a slippery slope to the bottom, all we ask is the cap is scrapped as it stands now and the only factor in wages is whether you can afford it, maybe just increase the cap to £3,000,000 if the club can afford it.

The new sky money basically pays the players their wages and all clubs could spend up to the cap, all that will do is make clubs lazy in marketing, clubs need to opportunity to grow financially and commercially.

I'm not too sure about a song and dance really, unless they have done exceptionally well in RU. Heralding the return of a RU convert failure to me smacks of desperation and is yet another nail in the proverbial RL coffin.

Best thing RL can do if JT/KE came back is to announce it, say all the usual "Quality player with a good attitude" drivel then shut up about it.

Correct

And what is happening now is not a result of any announcements or strategies that the RFL have made in the last 12 months, it's a result of previous strategies etc. over the past 12 years that's created this situation.

They then want to hide behind what they're doing now when it's far too late IMO.

I'm Surpised DeanoG et al aren't on here saying I told you so?

IMO the salary cap (although great in its intentions) provided the RFL with the perfect excuse to sit back and say "Well all the clubs are self sufficient so we must be doing something right" and instead of going out there generating more revenue streams, increasing it's profile and pushing itself to the forefront of Sports sponsorship they hid behind "Gimmicks" and "Innovative" ideas thinking that would increase the interest in our game.

When they realised that it wouldn't stop clubs going Bust we've had the blame game followed by more tinkering with the game and it's competition structure.

The World Cup has given the game over here a much needed boost short term but I again think it's given the RFL the excuse to Big up the game short term and although there seems to be some long term strategy with the TV deal there are many question marks over the Merits of both the Term of the deal and the income and if we could have done better.

I'm long over getting wound up by the situation as what will be will be but my Main point is all those that told us Everything was fine 10/5/2 years ago are pretty much the same people telling us everything's alright now.

If you didnt believe it then I'm not sure why we should believe much has changed now?

The one thing wrong with the RFL is Nigel Wood. The sooner he is shot of the better for UK Rugby League.

I meant use the occasion to illustrate that Union does not have streets paved with gold for everyone.

Loath though I am to say this - and I never wanted to sink to the levels of RU in its Shamateurism days - but I think we should now be on a war-footing with RU.

There's no point us pretending that all is good and fine between us and them. It isn't. We get nothing of value from them - Powell being a case in point - and they have the potential to take everything of value from us. The first casualty of this should be Andy Farrell, who can surely no longer be invited into RL's inner circles. He was once a favourite son, but he's clearly indicated that this means nothing to him.

However, I do take your overall point. Sometimes it's better to behave with dignity. Especially, I suppose, when you've got no real choice.

I totally agree with this. Especially the inviting of Union coaches into Rugby League environments. Farrell will always be remembered as a great player but not for his actions since crossing the code barrier. You cant blame him he is doing his job, but I do not see the need to give him or others access to the clubs/players. That goes for others too, perhaps with the exception of Shaun Edwards who has conducted himself very well despite being employed by the other code.

There is no need to be ignorant or unprofessional to these people, just stop inviting them in to our backyard and decline any invites from them.

In my opinion the damage was done when we became obsessed with Australian Coaches and the brain drain commenced. It was only natural that with no pathway into coaching players would drift to the 15 man game and take there scouting knowledge with them.

The long term impact of selling Faz to Union has been a disaster for the code, and one hopes that we learn from those errors, sadly I don't have any faith that we will though.

At first the cap was lauded as a way of stopping clubs going bust and when that didn't prevent that happening they moved the goal posts and now it's to level the playing field, if anything it's making the playing field much steeper for the top clubs who are still winning everything (bar Huddersfield last year because of the play offs the LLS is seen as a pointless way of playing all your cards at once by the teams who have won it and failed in the play offs).

What makes multi millionaires throw money at Football clubs even though they know they will run it at a major loss? Unless they win the Champions League.

It's a play thing, a hobby, an ego massager to walk onto the pitch holding up a trophy with the team.

Why stop Koukash pouring money into Salford? If Salford signed Sonny Bill Williams he states they could attract 3000 more fans to every home game, TBH I'd probably go just to watch him if I'm honest and definitely go to an away game at Salford.

So 3000 x £20 ticket x 14 home games is an extra £840,000 pa minus Tax (50%) and overheads your probably looking at £400,000, would Sonny Bill and the likes come to Superleague for £400,000 a year, I'd like to think so.

If you were a local business man would you be more inclined to sponsor Salford if Sonny Bill Williams played for them? I sure would.

If Salford attracted 10,000 a game with SBW playing for Salford would Sky pay more for the viewing rights and would more people upgrade to the Sports package?
I reckon so.

All in all would the game be better off on a financial level, commercial level and quality level? Apart from the Wakefield, Castleford, Bradford and London yes, it would be.

But for all this to happen the first thing that must be done is give clubs the opportunity to earn and pay more.

If I worked for a company and was told to make 40 items a week, anymore you won't get extra pay for I probably would t do anymore but if they said you get paid a certain about for however many you do over 40 would I be inclined to do more? You bet ya!

Has anyone considered that this isn't just about Bucks.
SBW wants a RU World Cup winners medal, maybe Burges want one as well.
Good luck to him.

A quick example from my job which I think is similar to this.

I used to work at Xercise4Less in Wigan but have since moved to another gym, in my new role I have poached members from X4L for my new gym. It's good for business.

Now flip that to AF, in essence he has done/doing the same thing. Poaching RL members for RU. It goes without saying there is considerable difference but I think the general jist is the same. He is just doing his job, however much it may p*ss us all off.

Along with Sam Tomkins, Sam Burgess is a once in a generation player (must be the time of the Sam's). Losing him to RU is an absolute hammer blow to not just UK RL but the NRL. If he could of played SOO would he of stayed? Doubtful. IMO to really cement his star quality as an overall rugby player he needs a World Cup or an international title (be it 6N, GB & I Lions etc). He wants to not only emulate SBW but be better than him in all aspects. It's possible SB will be back as a RL player in 4 years time, its possible he won't be but either way IMHO he has done all that is possible for him to do in RL. By "doing all is possible" I mean as in what the team he plays for is capable of doing. England got to a WC SF, realistically if we had got to the final would we have won? Would South Sydney of won the NRL GF? I can't say the answer to either question is yes.

I'm annoyed he's gone to RU but I suppose how we as RL fans are feeling now about it is the exact same as to how RU fans felt when RL poached their stars. I hate saying it and I hate doing it but all we can do is grin and bear it.

If we grin and bear it rahs just burying our heads in the sand and we will go the way of speedway and snooker, we need to round up the wagons and come up with a strategy for the future of the game.

First on the agenda, let clubs spend up to £3,000,000 if they can afford it, if no SL club can as yet then they have the option to if they market themselves well enough, for the money we got for Tomkins and Sams wage we could pay Billy Slater to play for us for 3 years.