No.

That's in Stretford and therefore in neither Salford or Manchester.

wigan might not have the best squad of 13 or 17 on paper but games are not played on paper and the coaching makes a big difference. It is also what happens when any of the 1-17 are not available and that is where Wigan come to the forefront as the back up players are not weak links.

The most exciting thing about next season for me is the fact that we don't yet know how all of the big teams will do.

Wigan- how much will we miss Sam? How will Bowen do? Will we miss Pat? How will youngsters like Hughes/Bateman/Burgess/Sarginson/Burke do - (because at least one of them will become a star)? How will Pettybourne do? Will the pack be as good without HH?

Saints - How will Walsh fit in? Will they find a Stand Off? Will Walmsley improve (if so he could be immense)? Will Masoe be as good as he looked in the World Cup? Can Brown be a winning coach? Saints look stronger but is Brown up to it?

Leeds - Can they begin to replace Peacock and Leuluia in the front row? How long will McGuire and Sinfield last? Will their wingers get any service?

Warrington - Will they replace Hodgson, Morley, Briers? Will Higham and Monaghan last a full season? Can their younger forwards compete? How much will they really miss Briers? Warrington don't look as strong, but they do a have a fine coach

Salford - Will they gel as a team? Will Chase and Smith play to their undoubted potential as a pairing? Nobby will get them into the playoffs certainly, but will that be enough for the Doc?

Huddersfield - Will Brough have any reaction to playing at the top of his game for 10 months of this last season? Will they have learnt from last season in the same way that Wigan did?

For me, I am not as worried about the opposition this year. Wigan have no-one to fear.

I was thinking the same last year and look what happened

Sam aside, we're going in to next season with a consistent spine, which is something we haven't really been able to say for a good few years. In Bowen we are bringing in a top class proven NRL fullback (albeit with a possible question mark over his long term fitness), and if he can get an understanding with Green, Smith, Lockers, McIlorum who have all been playing to the same structures for at least a full season, then I don't think our creatvitity in attack will suffer too much compared to last season. That's without mentioning Sam Powell, Logan Tomkins, Hampshire, Williams and Tierney who will all be pushing for a regular spot in the 17.

We may miss Hansen's defence but ultimately it isn't going to be the departure of a forward that is going to make or break our season, particularly when you look down the long list of SL quality forwards we have in the squad, even after losing HH, Mossop, Tuson and Lauaki. It gives an opportunity for players like Clubb, Bateman, Hughes, Burke and the younger, fringe players to step up.

There are definitely question marks over us for next season but I'm not worried as we have multiple options for each one. We are unsure of our best left edge combination but there are at least 6 players competing for 2 spots, HH has left, but there are 7 or 8 players competing for a regular SR spot in the 17, and we need to replace Pat's goalkicking, but we have players in the squad who have kicked regularly at SL level.

There are just as many question marks over how Saints, Wire and Leeds will go next season IMO. Let them write us off, it didn't do us any harm 12 months ago.

Good summation imo

Due to the fact that you have not mentioned them does that mean that Widnes and Wakey are the dark horses,

I have a strong suspicion that as soon as Bowen gets a bit of form, we wont miss Sam (in the short term) as much as we thought we would.

Have we been written off? I understand the frustration at seeing Hansen go but I have not seen anywhere that we have been written off. My feeling on the squad is this -

Full back - We will be stronger when Bowen plays. As good as Sam is and will be Bowen out of the 2 is superior because of his defense and positioning. I was massively impressed with him last year for the Cowboys he gets in at first and second receiver as well as linking wide and also supports through the middle.

Wing - In Charnley we have the consistency so no issue there, Gelling does not do it for me on the wing but to be honest neither did Pat in his latter few seasons. Pat became a kick returner and final pass finisher. I see no reason why Gelling cannot do a similar job, I think though one of the young lads will win that shirt and give us real attacking threat on both sides of the field in any position. Massive loss is the kicking of Pat and his experience.

Centre - Stronger, Thornley with an offseason in him and the confidence from his performances towards the back end of last year should be a massive benefit. Goulding just keeps doing it Mr Consistent.

Halves - Same as Centre,

Prop - Massive strength in depth and a bit more punch this year with our new recruit. The younger lads have another year on the clock and I expect some of them to come back bigger physically than they were last year. Taylor for me could really come to the fore and push for International honors. All in all stronger.

Hooker. MM will continue to improve he is becoming a very rounded hooker. I expect a big steps forward from Logan this year, I dont know why but I just feel this could be his coming of age season.

Second Row - Faz another who will keep ticking over excellent no nonsense player has it all. Another year on the clock and building towards his peak in a few years time. Assuming we do not recruit the question is who fills the spot vacated by H. Big question marks on Bateman and his fitness issues and Hopkins totally untested. Gelling I would think will be in the mix as well as some of the younger fringe guys. Losing H's experience in my opinion and the unproven nature of his potential replacements means we will be weaker.

Loose - Legend

The support squad, as good as I have seen in SL.

We have much to be optimistic about, I do not believe given the depth in the squad we will see as much as a drop in form as we did last year.

I think we will follow the same model. Hit the ground at 100% take teams apart get to a points target then the rotations will begin, I expect though given the strength of the squad we will drop in performance but not to the levels we did last year before building again for the play-offs.

I am most excited about seeing Bowen next year, a real top quality player, yes it is gutting to lose Sam but this guy is the perfect replacement. I am also looking forward to seeing a few of the questions raised above answered. Who will become the second row incumbent, who will become the man to make the wing spot his own, and finally how we adapt without the experience of H and Pat when we are under pressure in the big games.


Finally I look forward to seeing Hampshire getting more game time either at 1 when Bowen is rested/injured and also in the halves. The kid is a real gem of a player.


I am confident we will be in the mix for trophies next year, and that being said what more can we ask for?

No I haven't seen anywhere where Wigan have been written off either. IMO Wigan are the team to beat next year although I'm sure if you end up winning the double or at least one trophy again I bet there will be some on here doing that thing they've picked up off Latics fans..."nobody gave us a chance, Wigan are always the underdogs we just like proving the big teams wrong" etc.

I think Wigan's signings have been quite good and agree with the analysis that if Bowen is fit and plays well he will mitigate the loss of Tomkins and it will be close to business as usual, although not quite business as usual because lets be honest Tomkins was the best player in SL by some distance so you are going to miss him. There's some denial on here about that just like there is on the Wire site with some of them claiming we aren't gonna miss Briers because Ratchford/Myler will do the job....yeah.

If Wigan aren't favourites next year I dunno who is. I think Leeds have made some decent signings too. Saints possibly although I think Saints are a bit overrated every pre-season. The irony with Saints is that when they were good, every pre-season people used to predict (wrongly) that they were in decline. But since they have been in decline, every pre-season people seem to predict this is the year they will come back and smash everyone, and it never happens. For a while this strange phenomenon happened with Bradford too - I remember the year Bradford signed Matt Orford there were a lot of people looking at their pack with an emerging Burgess, Menzies etc plus Orford and predicting that would be the year of the comeback of the Bulls. I don't see it yet with Saints. Wire will be weaker that is for sure, only one big signing in Asotasi (is he going to be good or past his peak?) and lost Briers, Hodgson, Carvell and Morley....ok Morley was showing signs of decline but the other three were still probably 3 of our best 5 players.

Thinking too much about the league these days depresses me a bit though because there is a lack of quality and I feel like you don't have to be a great side to win things, not like you did in the past. Wigan aren't a great side in the context of Wigan sides of old but they do have the right team ethic and culture and a very professional set up led by Wane off the field and O'Loughlin on it, so at the moment IMO that gives Wigan an edge over the rest.

But I don't expect a march to glory, if you win trophies again it will be a rocky ride with plenty of times this season where this forum is full of anguish from Wigan fans and criticism of Wane/various players along the way. I will probably be hanging out on here during the season as I expect the Wire forum will be in meltdown at parts of this year.

Good post from Jonh.
I do think Clubb will be the first in line for HH's 2nd row spot. He is 26, was captain of London and as SW put it a leader.
We have lost a fair bit of experience so SW will be looking for leadership in the pack.
Pettybourne brings experience to the front row and Clubb will to the 2nd row, then we have Lockers, that is a very good balance to me.
We have a stack full of young and exceptionally talented players and it wouldn't surprise me to see Sarginson take up the role at Wigan that Ratchford does at Warrington. We never had that quality backs utility man last year.
Agree about Bowen, we've lost the best player in SL from full back but Bowen will be the best fb in SL by a distance after 13 years in the NRL and still being in top form.
As for seeing the likes of new signings Pettybourne, Sarginson, Bateman, Hopkins, Clubb and Bowen, I can't wait and this is why we go to trial games.

Well the bookies haven't written us off. According to Sporting Life the favourite at 3 to 1 to win the Grand Final is - WIGAN.

I keep forgetting about Clubb, he is such an uninspiring player for me or has been he just slips my mind. To be fair to the lad though he has all the natural attributes to be a good player and clearly has a good mental attitude so he will probably and hopefully flourish in the Wigan environment.

Clubb ticks Wayne's box, ie big tall potential to be very athletic and mentally tough.

We have bags of options if it does not work out with the younger players, Gelling, and even the likes of Taylor and Pettybourne capable to fit in.

Assuming he stays Powell would be devastating running wide, but it probably is too much to expect him to be anything more than a Prop given his age and his lack of experience.

Very well analysed Jonh, but I think that any game time Hampshire gets should be mainly at halfback, let him get settled at halfback before subjecting him to exposure in the FB position.
Sam had a couple of seasons in the halves and got used to the systems and felt comfortable and settled in the team before moving to FB.
One player who I think could open a few eyes would be George Williams, I have seen him a few times in the U20s and a few times on Wigan TV, he seems to have an old head on young shoulders and is a great organiser.

If Hopkins settles you may have the seasons surprise package in the way hill was

I'm planning to bet pretty big this year on my team Hull KR so I've had a good look at the full squads of all the teams and I must admit Wigan's depth did surprise me, as did Huddersfield's.

On the flip side of that I do think the likes of Wire, Saints and Leeds do have better starting 17's than Wigan because although Bowen is a great signing and O'Loughlin is a great player your 6, 7 & 9 are nothing more than solid club players for their respective positions. But as I say, I do think there are real question marks about Leeds and Wire's depth in the forwards.

Your club's strength has been ethos, work ethic, preparation etc. rather than individual class of player and I do feel had Wire not lost players during the GF, they would have gone on to win the game pretty comfortably.

The good thing about the competition is that Huddersfield showed last season that a club has proven that significant progress can be made pretty quickly in terms of league places providing there's been some solid ground work in seasons before.

Hull KR's depth in the pack is as good as any in the whole competition IMO; Weyman, Poore, Costigan, A Walker, J Walker, Green, Cox, Larroyer, Langley - any set of forwards who don't turn up against them will get bullied off the park.

Hopefully London, Wakey and Bradford will get competitive squads together for the good of the league and it should be a good season.

I know everybody is entitled to an opinion but yours is really poor if you think Matty Smith and Blake Green are just solid squad players. I can't believe how good blake green has been when fit, best 6 we have had since Trent Barrett in my opinion, fantastic runner, good passer, fantastic organizer and an excellent kicker. I don't know when people will start to be honest about matty smith it reminds me of how people used to talk about Sam Tomkins when they couldn't accept he is a fantastic player.
I wouldn't swap our spine for any other in the league its head and shoulders above sthelens, wires, leeds, huddersfield and both the hull teams;
Bowen
blake green
Matty smith
McIlorum
O'loughlin
Aslong as you have average players who are willing to work their butts off that team will win trophies.
Im slightly worried about the forwards because i don't believe we have a true leader with experience at prop but then i think of how Taylor and flower developed last season and how pettybourne played during the world cup and realize we will be fine.

costigan will be your best tackler by a mile and Adam walker is your best prop by a mile but i won't be worrying and weyman his best years where 5 years ago and poore is a complete liability.

You can have an opinion without being arrogant with it. To say your spine is head and shoulders above Saints is ridiculous.

Roby is better than McIlorum and Walsh is better than Smith. Green and O'Loughlin are better than Hohaia than Wilkin I agree, and there isn't much between Lomax and Bowen. At this stage of their careers I wouldn't swap Lomax for Bowen.

How does that translate to you being head and shoulders above us?

Lomax has years in front of him, for that reason if I were in the position of swapping for Bowen I wouldn't. However at present Bowen is still a class above Lomax.

SOL is twice the player Wilkin has ever been.

Roby is better than Mick Mac at the moment, but I wouldn't leap around if we did a straight swap.

I haven't seen much of Walsh, he can only be an improvement on what you've had recently.

You honestly wouldn't be delighted if Roby signed for you? I don't believe that.

Walsh was in the top ten (joint 7th) in the Dally M voting this season. If he comes over with that form then he'll be the best 7 in Super League without a doubt.

I agree on O'Loughlin, he is far far better than Wilkin.

Either way, to suggest your spine is head and shoulders above ours is arrogant, ignorant and ridiculous.

bowen wil be the best fullback in super league if he stays fit but he had no problem last season. not arguing Lomax isn't close to him but Bowen has been there and done it with the best.
Green is one of the best 6 in super league and won't be surprised at the end of the season if goes back the NRL.
Matty smith will never be rated by st helens fans because he was former player but its hard to argue he wasn't fantastic last season. Luke walsh is a great player on his day but has already said he has a get out clause if an NRL come calling. still wouldn't swap them.
Roby is the best hooker in super league how he plays but McIlorum suits wigans play and is a fantastic player so i wouldn't exactly be ecstatic if we signed him and lost McIlourm.
and john wilkin isn't even close to o'loughlin.

so you could argue that Roby and Walsh still leave another 3 positions.

So you call having 3 out of 5 being head and shoulders above? Even though one of your 3 is Bowen and in your words there isn't much between him and Lomax?

yes of course it is. As a spine works together and not on individual playing merits i would say we have the best spine in the league last year showed how good it was. We lost the best player in super league and brought in one of top 5 NRL fullbacks to replace him, we will lose some match breaking plays but overall you would say bowen is a safer fullback. Not even mentioning the players who are backing up the spine Sam Powell, George Williams and Ryan hampshire. Sam Powell was the half back who cut Samoa to shreds for the England Knights.

It's about even. You might say that roby and McIlorum are close. The rest of the league disagreed with you throughout the World Cup. Roby is the best player in the list full stop.

Lomax vs Bowen - as has been said, it's close to call, given the different stages in their careers. There are question marks over both, but both are great players - draw

Hohaia vs Green - green had a fantastic season last year, and was probably the standout stand off for the year. I expect lance to have a better year this year, but probably green is definitely above here. - Green

Walsh vs Smith - there have been times through 2013 were I've really wished saints hadn't let smith go, and he's done really well in the Wigan structure. That said Walsh has done really well in the nrl this year, and probably the signing of the year (before a balls kicked in anger.) if he lives up to the billing then there's only 1 winner - Walsh

Roby vs McIlorum - see above - Roby

LMS vs SOL - Wilkin is a second rower, and we were far more effective towards the back of the year when we had Lms playing there, different style of loose forward etc. regardless there's no doubting the effect SOL has on Wigan - SOL

Wigan have better backup and reserves, but saints probably have better players supporting in the starting team.

Result - evens. Hardly a head and shoulders? The best thing about that list is it 6/10 British.

Ok. You're obviously unwilling to take off the blinkers and have a reasonable conversation.